why is boston university S of M so $$$

thehillsspencer said:

just wondering if there is a reason?
trying to make my application list and would like to include BUSM but is it worth the price?
why is it more than other schools?

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B/C BU EVERYTHING is overpriced.

Orthodoc40 said:

BU EVERYTHING is overpriced.

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Hehe, agreed. It at least used to be the most expensive undergrad in America. Hey, but they got a nice gym...............

They have an endowment that is low, especially considering they are located in such an expensive city and they aren't a state school, so no boatload of public funds for capital expenditures. Harvard has an amazing endowment and UMass is state. Tufts has a similar price tage, but I don't know the state of their endowment.

Yes, it is way too expensive but I did like the school while I was down there for interview. MA has a health care policy that I particularly like and favour and BU seems to really care about serving the underserved populations.

I guess the deciding factor in your list should be will you be a good fit at BU (and do you have a realistic chance there?) and if it was your only acceptance, will you matriculate there?

paradocs we are said:

...and BU seems to really care about serving the underserved populations.

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Agree 100%. BUMC is definitely known to serve a far more diverse patient population than the other hospitals in the area. Not being a student (yet), my suspicion is that this adds value to your medical education.

thehillsspencer said:

just wondering if there is a reason?
trying to make my application list and would like to include BUSM but is it worth the price?
why is it more than other schools?

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Correct to the above posts, BUSM is overpriced as they don't have as large (any?) endowement as compared to Harvard.

Part of the reason why is because not a lot of BUSM students will want to contribute to the school as alumni. Their library is the *worse* library I have ever been in, and that say a lot. Medical students would go to Northeastern to study in their library because it was modern. The BUSM library has cracking paint and hardly any recent textbooks and the staff is very dense to deal with, plus you don't get enough/any free copies there. it is impossible to study there as you will need ear plugs because it is so loud. The staff are very dense and you basically have to beg to get basic services, it is bad.

I just mention this because the library is the tip of the iceberg of the school. A lot of accepted students decided to go elsewhere obviously. The faculty have many "old school" preceptors which teach you based on basically intimidation and harassment, so you will come out with a jaded view of medicine.

MANY students I know had to go into general practice IM after residency to pay off massive debts for 3-4 years before trying to get back into the game to get a fellowship!! So, nobody is exactly dying to help out the school.

The nicest rooms are for faculty, which students never get to see, and they pay a lot of people's salary who basically treat students pretty poorly , and yes, they look down on their own students pretty badly.

I felt like I was pulling teeth to get ANY helpful information from my advisor who basically ignored me and gave me false information about setting up a research elective in another country. The faculty there all seem upset about something, i.e. the school or the neighborhood it is in or something and take it out on the students.

They had to put something on their website for reporting mid-clerkship grades as faculty HAVE lied to me and friends and how meetings with us about our grades, then only to mix-up evaluations and give unjustifiably harsh comments. I think the LCME will look into this though, so maybe that disrespect of students will be looked into. They basically had several very mean faculty members who via seniority were allowed to make racist and sexist comments and harass students and have not been let go to this day, the school must be hard up for teachers or just not care about how their "role models" are perceived by students.

I was so relieved to go elsewhere where people treat you decently, i.e. outside of the BUSM system. Most students I know would try to go somewhere else if given a second choice. I am glad I don't have to deal with the patronizing and lying faculty at this school any more. Totally unprofessional compared to every other place I have been to.

Tufts, Harvard, and UMass all have Great patient populations, as do all schools in boston due to the large number of immigrants there. . . the high price of the tuition is not worth it in the least, the curriculum is recently being changed as it it outmoded, in the end I didn't enjoy interacting with a majority of the faculty there who will such away your optimism day by day in little acts of meanest. I.e. scheduling an appointment with a dean days or weeks in advanced and being berrated as they "lost" the appointment, yeah right. Save yourself the trouble life is too short dealing with the faculty at BU. I can truly say that I never felt respected as a human being there. I think it is because they go too far down on their waitlist as most people know how poor the education is and they view the people who get in there as being deficient somehow. . . what a waste of time.

funny you should mention the price tag...on the interview day during the group question and answer session, the dean of course boasted and tried to sell BUSOM and make it appear like the most amazing place ever (when in reality, everything he was saying was just about the same selling points that you could make for almost any school)...suddenly, one student asked verbatim (and I kid you not), "seeing as though many of us have many choices to go for medical schools, each with their own advantages, how do you justify the exorbitant price of attending BU?" the look on the dean's face was priceless lol...and im pretty sure the kid didnt get in but at least it was entertaining...

BUMC definitely has nothing at all special/unique about it that justifies its ridiculous price tag...i went there for an interview this past season and saw this for myself.

as far as the so-called diverse patient population...that is certainly not something unique because there are plenty of other schools with diverse clinical experience..

in all honesty, i went in to the interview excited because in my head, BU appeared to be ideal for me, but i came out hearing NOTHING but average to negative (many negative) things from students and alumni.

all in all, id stick with you state school (or at least a private school that worth the $$) before going here...

gluck!

Amelia said:

Correct to the above posts, BUSM is overpriced as they don't have as large (any?) endowement as compared to Harvard.

Part of the reason why is because not a lot of BUSM students will want to contribute to the school as alumni. Their library is the *worse* library I have ever been in, and that say a lot. Medical students would go to Northeastern to study in their library because it was modern. The BUSM library has cracking paint and hardly any recent textbooks and the staff is very dense to deal with, plus you don't get enough/any free copies there. it is impossible to study there as you will need ear plugs because it is so loud. The staff are very dense and you basically have to beg to get basic services, it is bad.

I just mention this because the library is the tip of the iceberg of the school. A lot of accepted students decided to go elsewhere obviously. The faculty have many "old school" preceptors which teach you based on basically intimidation and harassment, so you will come out with a jaded view of medicine.

MANY students I know had to go into general practice IM after residency to pay off massive debts for 3-4 years before trying to get back into the game to get a fellowship!! So, nobody is exactly dying to help out the school.

The nicest rooms are for faculty, which students never get to see, and they pay a lot of people's salary who basically treat students pretty poorly , and yes, they look down on their own students pretty badly.

I felt like I was pulling teeth to get ANY helpful information from my advisor who basically ignored me and gave me false information about setting up a research elective in another country. The faculty there all seem upset about something, i.e. the school or the neighborhood it is in or something and take it out on the students.

They had to put something on their website for reporting mid-clerkship grades as faculty HAVE lied to me and friends and how meetings with us about our grades, then only to mix-up evaluations and give unjustifiably harsh comments. I think the LCME will look into this though, so maybe that disrespect of students will be looked into. They basically had several very mean faculty members who via seniority were allowed to make racist and sexist comments and harass students and have not been let go to this day, the school must be hard up for teachers or just not care about how their "role models" are perceived by students.

I was so relieved to go elsewhere where people treat you decently, i.e. outside of the BUSM system. Most students I know would try to go somewhere else if given a second choice. I am glad I don't have to deal with the patronizing and lying faculty at this school any more. Totally unprofessional compared to every other place I have been to.

Tufts, Harvard, and UMass all have Great patient populations, as do all schools in boston due to the large number of immigrants there. . . the high price of the tuition is not worth it in the least, the curriculum is recently being changed as it it outmoded, in the end I didn't enjoy interacting with a majority of the faculty there who will such away your optimism day by day in little acts of meanest. I.e. scheduling an appointment with a dean days or weeks in advanced and being berrated as they "lost" the appointment, yeah right. Save yourself the trouble life is too short dealing with the faculty at BU. I can truly say that I never felt respected as a human being there. I think it is because they go too far down on their waitlist as most people know how poor the education is and they view the people who get in there as being deficient somehow. . . what a waste of time.

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Actually, this year, during the BU open house, they told us that more accepted students attended it than any other year...so more students are looking at the school. And seeing hw there hasn't been much waitlist movement the last couple of years at BU, a lot of people are still accepting the offer. All of the students that I met at the open house had other acceptances so it's not like they're going to BU because they have nowhere else to go, as it is true in my case. And their curriculum has undergone drastic changes the last two years...and Tufts SOM curriculum is not integrated yet in the same way as BU. Yes, every medical student that we met there said that it is expensive...but they also said they have have enjoyed their career at BU, and one of the best things about the school is the responsiveness of faculty.

So, maybe you have been unlucky at BU, but I'm really looking forward to starting there this fall.

Amelia said:

Correct to the above posts, BUSM is overpriced as they don't have as large (any?) endowement as compared to Harvard.

Part of the reason why is because not a lot of BUSM students will want to contribute to the school as alumni. Their library is the *worse* library I have ever been in, and that say a lot. Medical students would go to Northeastern to study in their library because it was modern. The BUSM library has cracking paint and hardly any recent textbooks and the staff is very dense to deal with, plus you don't get enough/any free copies there. it is impossible to study there as you will need ear plugs because it is so loud. The staff are very dense and you basically have to beg to get basic services, it is bad.

I just mention this because the library is the tip of the iceberg of the school. A lot of accepted students decided to go elsewhere obviously. The faculty have many "old school" preceptors which teach you based on basically intimidation and harassment, so you will come out with a jaded view of medicine.

MANY students I know had to go into general practice IM after residency to pay off massive debts for 3-4 years before trying to get back into the game to get a fellowship!! So, nobody is exactly dying to help out the school.

The nicest rooms are for faculty, which students never get to see, and they pay a lot of people's salary who basically treat students pretty poorly , and yes, they look down on their own students pretty badly.

I felt like I was pulling teeth to get ANY helpful information from my advisor who basically ignored me and gave me false information about setting up a research elective in another country. The faculty there all seem upset about something, i.e. the school or the neighborhood it is in or something and take it out on the students.

They had to put something on their website for reporting mid-clerkship grades as faculty HAVE lied to me and friends and how meetings with us about our grades, then only to mix-up evaluations and give unjustifiably harsh comments. I think the LCME will look into this though, so maybe that disrespect of students will be looked into. They basically had several very mean faculty members who via seniority were allowed to make racist and sexist comments and harass students and have not been let go to this day, the school must be hard up for teachers or just not care about how their "role models" are perceived by students.

I was so relieved to go elsewhere where people treat you decently, i.e. outside of the BUSM system. Most students I know would try to go somewhere else if given a second choice. I am glad I don't have to deal with the patronizing and lying faculty at this school any more. Totally unprofessional compared to every other place I have been to.

Tufts, Harvard, and UMass all have Great patient populations, as do all schools in boston due to the large number of immigrants there. . . the high price of the tuition is not worth it in the least, the curriculum is recently being changed as it it outmoded, in the end I didn't enjoy interacting with a majority of the faculty there who will such away your optimism day by day in little acts of meanest. I.e. scheduling an appointment with a dean days or weeks in advanced and being berrated as they "lost" the appointment, yeah right. Save yourself the trouble life is too short dealing with the faculty at BU. I can truly say that I never felt respected as a human being there. I think it is because they go too far down on their waitlist as most people know how poor the education is and they view the people who get in there as being deficient somehow. . . what a waste of time.

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Haha, sounds like my undergrad...SLU anyone??

eagle34 said:

Actually, this year, during the BU open house, they told us that more accepted students attended it than any other year...so more students are looking at the school. And seeing hw there hasn't been much waitlist movement the last couple of years at BU, a lot of people are still accepting the offer. All of the students that I met at the open house had other acceptances so it's not like they're going to BU because they have nowhere else to go, as it is true in my case. And their curriculum has undergone drastic changes the last two years...and Tufts SOM curriculum is not integrated yet in the same way as BU. Yes, every medical student that we met there said that it is expensive...but they also said they have have enjoyed their career at BU, and one of the best things about the school is the responsiveness of faculty.

So, maybe you have been unlucky at BU, but I'm really looking forward to starting there this fall.

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Well, schools always advertise *against* what is their weak point. Or in other words you won't see Harvard Medical School at their open house disseminating propaganda that they got a lot of acceptances (they don't need to). It is sort of like an unethical land lord saying that the roof didn't leak much this year.

Please, if medical school applicants increase then desparate people would want to hold on to their BUSM acceptance. Tufts medical school students are not as stressed as BU med students be far.

I am sure how BUSM's faculty told you at the open house how responsive the faculty is. Obviously, this is one of their big problems as many great faculty have left the BU environment for much greener pastures, and they have had numerous present and past problems in terms of being helpful to students after they are accepted. Same thing as a used car salesman telling you how that gas guzzler gets great mileage.

I was astounded by the lack of empathy and professionalism amoung faculty at BUSM. They certainly get down in the gutters with students and do a lot of unethical things as well.

I am glad that I won't be influenced/slimmed by that type of environment anymore. You won't think its funny your first year when histology professor get verbally abusive with you and the total lack of support for research projects. Jeez. And I thought the tough stuff was supposed to start in clinical years!

Total lack of collegial atmosphere for students to learn in. I am sorry to say many of my classmates were ultracompetitive and did do a lot of mean things to fellow students even.

It seems like everyone in that school is concerned with their own career and there is a lack of available opportunities for students to get involved in the community there. I am ashamed to say I went to medical school there!

timurx said:

funny you should mention the price tag...on the interview day during the group question and answer session, the dean of course boasted and tried to sell BUSOM and make it appear like the most amazing place ever (when in reality, everything he was saying was just about the same selling points that you could make for almost any school)...suddenly, one student asked verbatim (and I kid you not), "seeing as though many of us have many choices to go for medical schools, each with their own advantages, how do you justify the exorbitant price of attending BU?" the look on the dean's face was priceless lol...and im pretty sure the kid didnt get in but at least it was entertaining...

BUMC definitely has nothing at all special/unique about it that justifies its ridiculous price tag...i went there for an interview this past season and saw this for myself.

as far as the so-called diverse patient population...that is certainly not something unique because there are plenty of other schools with diverse clinical experience..

in all honesty, i went in to the interview excited because in my head, BU appeared to be ideal for me, but i came out hearing NOTHING but average to negative (many negative) things from students and alumni.

all in all, id stick with you state school (or at least a private school that worth the $$) before going here...

gluck!

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Well, when you go to school and get harassed by one of their "faculty" the conversation I had with them basically paraphrased was:

Amelia: Dr. **&&* verbally abused me on a daily basis, I would like to work under someone else.

Dean: Dr. &&^*O has worked here for years! We like to see if you can sink or swim so we put students under a lot of pressure.

Amelia: I feel emotionally harassed each day, one student I know cried every evening after the harassment, please, can't you do anything to help us?

Dean: We us intimidation to help you learn why else? Besides, you have to break a few eggs to make an omlet

Amelia: I don't think racial and sexist comments helps.

Dean: I have to go to a buffet for a new building on the main campus, it will be beautiful!

Amelia: What about my concerns?

Dean: Bye! Be sure to send your tuition payment *real* soon.

Like really dude/dudette, even if you are harassed you are told to be quiet about it for the "good" of the school, i.e. jobs for school fat-cats who are probably overpaid considering they don't actually see patients or do what most people would consider real work. Deans and faculty will simply *ignore* your questions and not answer them. It is disconcerting to have this happen for the first time, and I have only seen this at BUSM.

If a student has legitimate difficulties at BUSM, i.e. faculty harassing you or just routine concerns they won't stick up for you or help you out, i.e. priority 1 is not to help you become a better doctor, but to basically pander to old fat cats that run the place, this is sad because many other schools are supportive for students while BU is not. Granted if you don't have problems at all (but who can claim this?) then it will appear to be an average medical school. But if there are issues that often aren't your fault they don't provide support but make things worse.

I have been told point blank by BU faculty who are supposed to be part of "Student Support Services" that so and so attending IS a real bully and very mean to students and basically told me so what?

I had very high grades in college, phi beta kappa, MCATs 35+, everything, was very sincere and met harassment at BU and was told basically, So What? If you have great grades you should go to a better school like 85% of other medical school are better than BU. They just won't respect you as a student at all!

It is weird when they tell you that your emotional health and suffering harassment means *nothing* to them. What would make them get nicer faculty that don't feel the need to be bullies?

In some states workplace harassment is not legal, but the thought at BUSM is that harassment is OK when the target is a medical student.

Geez. Life is too short for this type of treament. You will come out much more jaded then when you went in. Do yourself a favor and go somewhere else if you are lucky enough!

One a personal note I have counciled many accepted students at BUSM to go elsewhere for medical school if they don't want to run the risk of facing the sort of harassment that BUSM dishes out, they were afraid that the other acceptence would be worse. I am pleased to say that they have all had an excellent time at other schools. What would have happened at BUSM? I don't know, but at least they had their free will in their hands and avoid what could be a disaster at BUSM.

Any reason in particular that BU is being singled out for its cost? at about 43k, it's +/- 5k away from the vast majority of private schools in the northeast.

As far as my experience with BU, I find them (their undergrad, at least) to be the most money-grubbing institution I've ever come across. It's the only school I've ever heard of that doesn't allow its students to transfer credits from any university in massachusetts, or any online classes. They also charge undergrads for any credits beyond 16 or 20 credits. I have no doubt that attitude permiates to the medical school.

Regarding the clinical exposure, I was always rather underwhelmed with BMC. My office window looks down onto the medical school and the emergency room, and compared to the Longwood area hospitals, I'm always amazed at how little goes on there throughout the day. I also find myself wondering if their mission to serve the underserved is truly altruistic, or whether they were pigeonholed into that role. It's well known that anybody with the means and ability to go to BWH, BI, or MGH will do so in a heartbeat, so I won't be surprised if BMC gets stuck with the underserved. At the end of the day, I think it's a decent school with dean that believes it's an ivy league and likely well-deserved bad rep.

PreMD86 said:

Any reason in particular that BU is being singled out for its cost? at about 43k, it's +/- 5k away from the vast majority of private schools in the northeast.

As far as my experience with BU, I find them (their undergrad, at least) to be the most money-grubbing institution I've ever come across. It's the only school I've ever heard of that doesn't allow its students to transfer credits from any university in massachusetts, or any online classes. They also charge undergrads for any credits beyond 16 or 20 credits. I have no doubt that attitude permiates to the medical school.

Regarding the clinical exposure, I was always rather underwhelmed with BMC. My office window looks down onto the medical school and the emergency room, and compared to the Longwood area hospitals, I'm always amazed at how little goes on there throughout the day. I also find myself wondering if their mission to serve the underserved is truly altruistic, or whether they were pigeonholed into that role. It's well known that anybody with the means and ability to go to BWH, BI, or MGH will do so in a heartbeat, so I won't be surprised if BMC gets stuck with the underserved.

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BU undergraduate got a huge donation from an alumni, and then didn't do what the alumni wanted done with it, and BUSM refused to give the money back as they didn't use it what it was supposed for essentially stealling millions from this alumni. This alumni who later filed a lawsuit.

I myself have been overcharged by BUSM for services/education I never received, in the thousands of dollars!

They truly have no shame and you have to keep a close eye on fees or they will do unethical things to your account as a medical student.

When Ted Kennedy got sick no way in the world he would go to BUMC. I have little respect for their trauma service as some of the attendings surgeons are very disrespectful of students.

I have seen residents uses racial slurs and talk inappropriately to underserved patients of color, so at the provider level it is a lot of lip service. I have seen several minority patients not get the care/respect they deserve at BUMC, because of their race as they are "paying"via the free care pool so that is not an excuse.

Many schools/medical centers in Boston do a lot more than BUSM for the underserved with wearring a badge on their sleeve and constantly mentioning it.

I would not describe the education as "decent" as they don't seem to care about keeping standards up for attendings who teach there like they do at the Harvard affiliated hospitals.

BUSM feels that they can charge whatever they want to for medical education and at 43,000 plus all the extras like living in the ultraexpensive area around Boston, books, travel expenses to far flung clinics and hospitals. Most students don't contribute anything as alumni because of the harassment you get while there and for that price you sort of have already contributed to the school beyond what the education is worth, just something else that BUSM forces you to do unethically.

I have great respect for residents from UMass at BUMC . . . they are nice and learn more than you ever will at BUSM!

tbo said:

Agree 100%. BUMC is definitely known to serve a far more diverse patient population than the other hospitals in the area. Not being a student (yet), my suspicion is that this adds value to your medical education.

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I have seen more interesting cases if that is what you mean, at places outside of BUMC and Harrison as I believe that the interesting cases are shipped out to MGH, and other quarternary hospitals of which BUMC wouldn't be one in my mind.

The city of Boston is awash in immigrant populations which speak dozens of different languages to say that BUSM gets 25% of its patients like this other hospitals get 20% is meaningless in terms of education. Every patient is interesting! AT EVERY HOSPITAL IN BOSTON YOU WILL GET A TON OF UNDERSERVED PATIENTS AS THE FREE POOL CARE PATIENTS GO EVERYWHERE.

More importantly is the quality of clinical involvement/instruction. I never felt involved during clinicals, other places are MUCH better than BUSM in this manner, and instruction will never be good as the quality of MGH, because in general BUMC residents are NOT choosen for their ability to teach like they are at MGH, period.

Wow Amelia - Being from the area, I've heard my share of bad things about BUSM, and they echo some things you've mentioned but not anywhere near as harshly! Just curious, did you transfer out, or graduate out?! (BTW, they tell me that they don't accept transfer students, which is weird, because I'm sure they lose a few people a year....)

Orthodoc40 said:

Wow Amelia - Being from the area, I've heard my share of bad things about BUSM, and they echo some things you've mentioned but not anywhere near as harshly! Just curious, did you transfer out, or graduate out?! (BTW, they tell me that they don't accept transfer students, which is weird, because I'm sure they lose a few people a year....)

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They lose more than a few people a year from what I could tell as many would rather go to a better school with more research or public health projects. Let's just say that I thought twice about applying for residency at BUMC (actually didn't need to think twice, just once, as I would rank them last out of all the other residency programs in the US).

I didn't know any transfers, obviously you would have to be a sucker to transfer to a worst school and one with a higher tuition. . . I think the culture shock would be too big as most hospitals treat students/residents pretty well in comparision to BUSM. They make it hard on students who want to leave and basically harass them and it is hard to find an institution to transfer to.

I can tell many days after clinicals I would break down into tears. I honestly feel that there are some psychological scars you just can't shed after being at BUSM without becoming a cold hearted person, which is really what you have to be if you want to get along well with the residents/faculty there.

I think a lot of BUSM grads become more and more bitter as time goes by as they see that they could have been treated more humanly at other medical schools. . . Hopefully one day they will be able to get in some excellent faculty there. There is none amoung the faculty that I would rank as excellent, i.e. all have some sort of block on their shoulder that left me with a bitter taste in my mouth and wanting to pull out my hair.

One past student did worse, he was an ex-israeli commando I think, and he was being harassed during clinicals and basically killed his roomate and is in prison now. How many schools does this happen at? It is no coincidence if you ask me, and frankly I wasn't surprised. That is how hard they "Push" you with insults and harassment unrelated to medical education.

They are purposefully mean to students which is what is sad. I did work recently with a BUSM alumni, graduated years prior to me, and he was a freaking basket case and a complete jerk. I was like wow, this is the sort of doctor out school produces, I sure don't want to be like him in ten years, geez.

BUSM teaches their students to hate themselves. I felt sick going into our little community clinic site each day as I seemed to pick up on all the little insults our "preceptor" who thought lowly of us would hurl at us. It sucks when students sit around and everyone is commenting how the dean of student affairs is and how they hurl mean comments and basically psychologically play little games with you.

Everday away from BUSM is another day that I appreciate how truly horrible that place is/was.

Holy **** Amelia, I never would have thought in a million years that I'd find someone more cynical about an overrpriced education than I am. Congrats--:hands over blue ribbon:.

I've just finished first year and moving on the the second year, so I don't have anything to say about those harassments. However, what I can say is that I have enjoyed this past year tremendously. I've enjoyed the fact that all the courses are pass/fail, I've enjoyed my intro to clinical medicine class. As far as I know, none of the lecturers verbally abused anyone I know. On the contrary, they seem friendly and are very responsive to student feedbacks. To be totally honest though, there are a few professors who are terrible at lecturing but they usually supplement their teaching with good notes. Most professors are decent and a few of them I would even rate them as excellent (on par with Goljian).

About the huge number of acceptances this year, I had a discussion with the director of the Intro to Clinical Medicine class and I don't think it is an exaggeration. I think more students coming to the school than the school was planning to matriculate initially. According to her, there would be at least 180 matriculants next year as compared to only 168 this year and she had some difficulties finding clinical placements for everyone (but she's getting there).

Finally, if everything else seems bleak, at least BU has a good match list this year. I was looking at it and I'm impressed. If I can squeeze myself into the top 50% of that match list, I think my education is worth every penny.

Amelia said:

One past student did worse, he was an ex-israeli commando I think, and he was being harassed during clinicals and basically killed his roomate and is in prison now.

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He "basically" killed his roommate? So did he actually murder him? Are you suggesting the stress of his clinicals caused him to snap and kill someone that had nothing to do with it? That's some hardcore harassment...

Amelia said:

One past student did worse, he was an ex-israeli commando I think, and he was being harassed during clinicals and basically killed his roomate and is in prison now. How many schools does this happen at? It is no coincidence if you ask me, and frankly I wasn't surprised. That is how hard they "Push" you with insults and harassment unrelated to medical education.

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Holy bleep! I have several friends trained in the Israel military and it would take a helluva lot to unnerve these guys!

Either that, or this student had some PTSD or other psych issue, and the pressure made the guy snap?!

Orthodoc40 said:

Holy bleep! I have several friends trained in the Israel military and it would take a helluva lot to unnerve these guys!

Either that, or this student had some PTSD or other psych issue, and the pressure made the guy snap?!

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I just did a quick search on that article and came up with http://www.paynesvillearea.com/news/headlinesarticles/archives/031401/lenz0314.html. Seems Amelia is a bit quick on lumping random crap so she can defend her own personal experience. I sort of hate it when one person goes so wild on their one experience and attempts to extrapolate it over a huge generalization as to dissuade future martriculants, and in the process, cite wild accusations and their own experience. Heck, that's such circular logic, 'I have experienced this, and because i felt this...(random citation of unrelated incident)...it must be true...therefore, i have the right to feel this and talk about this...'. ehh, rampages...

Anther article: http://media.www.dailyfreepress.com...u.Students.Murder.Trial.Underway-158417.shtml

Don't be so naive as to suggest BUMC is the only school that experiences violence, that is totally a gross exaggeration on your behalf, which just totally raised my flag and i will be weary of what you say. Don't even go as far as to try to speculate why you think someone committed a crime simply because your personal experience may have caused you to go that crazy.

Why was the ex-commando ever admitted to, or let to continue at, medical school in the first place!?! He was convicted of assaulting this guy years before the murder. He should have been out.

Lshapley said:

Why was the ex-commando ever admitted to, or let to continue at, medical school in the first place!?! He was convicted of assaulting this guy years before the murder. He should have been out.

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Indeed, that is the bigger question. Clearly someone dropped the ball in admissions.

BigRedder said:

He "basically" killed his roommate? So did he actually murder him? Are you suggesting the stress of his clinicals caused him to snap and kill someone that had nothing to do with it? That's some hardcore harassment...

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Rumors fly of course, I haven't gone to the prison to interview him. As anyone knows the stress of third and fourth year even are great and this is what he was doing with 95% of time like all medical students . . . which gives credence to the rumor, I admit, that he was severely harassed during his time at BUSM . . . Has to make you think, . . . he snapped before he almost finished medical school there.

Even more interesting: http://media.www.dailyfreepress.com...l.Student.Charged.In.Murder-54658-page2.shtml

Mason, who was reportedly trained as an assassin in the Israeli military, allegedly then shot Yazgur in each leg, breaking both his femurs.

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Trained assassin...that's just...wow. He went to Dartmouth before BU and apparently had trouble there too, as well as with his former girlfriend.

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multipage/documents/02063816.htm actually has a picture of him.

I've pretty much concluded that Amelia's citation of a BUMC-made killer is totally false, just a sleazy attempt to cite misunderstood information to get their point out. This guy has had a violent past, it wasn't the verbal assaults from BUMC faculty that led him to murder, that was just wild speculation. The only thing you can know from the articles is his violent past, his past charges, and that pattern continued towards his murder of that dude. It wasn't as if he was a Peace Corp member, hard core green peace, and then after BUMC's faculty, turned into a murderer because he was "severely harassed during his time at BUSM". pfff, nice try.

No offense, but if this was how you defended your arguments at BUSM, then I wouldn't exactly expect people to pat you on the shoulder. Cite real events where you don't have to speculate and assume so much. Heck, I'm getting heated over just the way you've presented your argument and I am no faculty at BUSM.

This comment is probably out of line, but perhaps it's a good thing they try to expose you to harsh environments in medical school. Are you expecting your patients to give you a lollipop, then tell you their ailments? It's not going to be all candyland in hospitals when you're doing your rotations, so if you can't handle faculty like that, good luck when you experience a wild patient that is just overly-stressed due to their ailments to cooperate in a manner you think is appropriate. Of course you can backlash at this comment and be like "oh, im in residency and haven't experienced anything like that before", but don't expect everyone to be so brown-nosy with you. Perhaps your experience with the faculty was just out of misunderstanding and not expecting what you were expecting.

aster said:

Even more interesting: http://media.www.dailyfreepress.com...l.Student.Charged.In.Murder-54658-page2.shtml

Trained assassin...that's just...wow. He went to Dartmouth before BU and apparently had trouble there too, as well as with his former girlfriend.

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multipage/documents/02063816.htm actually has a picture of him.

I've pretty much concluded that Amelia's citation of a BUMC-made killer is totally false, just a sleazy attempt to cite misunderstood information to get their point out. This guy has had a violent past, it wasn't the verbal assaults from BUMC faculty that led him to murder, that was just wild speculation. The only thing you can know from the articles is his violent past, his past charges, and that pattern continued towards his murder of that dude. It wasn't as if he was a Peace Corp member, hard core green peace, and then after BUMC's faculty, turned into a murderer because he was "severely harassed during his time at BUSM". pfff, nice try.

No offense, but if this was how you defended your arguments at BUSM, then I wouldn't exactly expect people to pat you on the shoulder. Cite real events where you don't have to speculate and assume so much. Heck, I'm getting heated over just the way you've presented your argument and I am no faculty at BUSM.

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Hmm, . . . I think everything in this student's environment lead him to snap, and you have ZERO experience with how bad a nasty situation can be during clinical years. The rumors persist and perhaps I should have stated they were rumors, but makes you think that the environment at BUSM is shall we say less than supportive?

So let me get this, as premedical student you seem to know about how and what students should be treated in medical school and think you know more than someone who is a resident?? Wow! Good Luck tough guy/gal on the wards. I have seen *thousands* of patients and have never been harassed by any sure some are drunk, delusional, angry etc . . . but personaly abusive!!! Congratulations on seeming to know everything about medicine before medical school!

I hope that some resident or attending harasses you in medical school for weeks, then you may change your little "Medical school should be hell" attitude. I sincerely hope you never become an attending (I guess that would be years for you thankfully) this attitude is what makes med school painful, whoops, Oh I forgot you haven't even been to medical school yet, but you continue to talk about it like an expert!!

Amelia said:

Hmm, . . . I think everything in this student's environment lead him to snap, and you have ZERO experience with how bad a nasty situation can be during clinical years. The rumors persist and perhaps I should have stated they were rumors, but makes you think that the environment at BUSM is shall we say less than supportive?

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That is still speculation...the only thing that seems more likely is that this stemmed from the 1997 incident with the same guy (who then sued him), and then after he was finally ordered in 2001 to start paying up on that friday (i think he was quoted in court after being sued that he would never pay a penny), he murdered the guy on thursday. Those are stronger connections then throwing in BUSM's less supportive environment.

What I'm trying to get to is to stop citing that incident or defending your citation of that incident.

aster said:

That is still speculation...the only thing that seems more likely is that this stemmed from the 1997 incident with the same guy (who then sued him), and then after he was finally ordered in 2001 to start paying up on that friday (i think he was quoted in court after being sued that he would never pay a penny), he murdered the guy on thursday. Those are stronger connections then throwing in BUSM's less supportive environment.

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Well the rumors goes the student was upset ALSO very upset about treatment at the school, i.e. BUSM where he was facing harassment. Think! If he was positive about his medical career why would something from the past disturb him? Since I have seen probably hundreds of psych patient on rotations and in the middle of the night in ERs us in medicine (not you!) use the biopsychosocial model being in this student's case there are:

1. Biological factors i.e. family history of mental illness
2. SOCIAL FACTORS i.e. harassment at school!!!!! in addition to the minor ticket or whatever happened in the past
3. Psychological factors, UH DUH!!! Depression made worse by harassment

You have to think outside the box dude!!! You have to LOOK at everything when considering a psych patient, do you know more than someonw who passed the steps with flying colors and sees this model in action every day of her life??? I don't think so. The argument is valid,

harassment of this student doubtlessly played a role!! Just how much of a role is in debate your flat out ignorance of how to evaluate a person with severe mental illness shined today aster! Patients are a lot more complex than o-chem or whatever you are studying you really need to learn that!!

Are you like a B student in college who never took psychology or something? Dam, I guess high grades in clinicals, super high board scores and 3.9+ in college makes me evaluate my experience in medical school compared to what? Your complete total lack of experience in medical school seeing patients? Call the press! They should make you a resident now!! Be sure to show off your advocacy for medical student harassment during interviews!!

Amelia said:

have seen *thousands* of patients and have never been harassed by any sure some are drunk, delusional, angry etc . . . but personaly abusive!!!

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Seriously? Because I've never worn a white coat, but I've certainly been harassed by plenty of drunk, delusional, and angry (particularly if they're also drunk and delusional) patients. I've got to say that single statement pretty much makes me disregard any of your other posts.

punkindrublic said:

Seriously? Because I've never worn a white coat, but I've certainly been harassed by plenty of drunk, delusional, and angry (particularly if they're also drunk and delusional) patients. I've got to say that single statement pretty much makes me disregard any of your other posts.

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There are different types of angry patients to be sure, some patients yell and get angry and throw things, but that's different from being personally degraded by attendings on service. Basically my point was that you can and should forgive the patient and get this: YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE THEM THE NEXT DAY!! Different story when attendings harass the same students for months. I have plenty thick skin as I don't really take "patient abuse" seriously, but being harassed by someone above or equal to you in rank sucks.

Wow, way of throwing in more unnecessary information. I am not in the right position to battle against all those 'medical school' crap you threw in. What I was trying to say is pretty simple to grasp. He is not your patient, you have not had any first hand contact, but just rumors. Because of the rumors, please do not cite that man as reason to defend your argument against BUSM. It's as simple as that. Truth of the matter = you have not seen this man, do not attempt to diagnose him with your psychology knowledge or your biopsychosocial model, who gives a crap what you use.

My argument is not questioning what you learn, but rather how you just defended yourself by citing RUMORS AND SPECULATION. Anyone can defend themselves by saying "rumor has it...and it seems pretty consistent with how i feel". Not many would take your argument seriously. Stop bringing in unnecessary information and trying to make it seem as if your seniority means that your reasoning and logic is beyond anyone else. Just because you had a high mcat and 3.9+ gpa doesn't mean squat when it comes time to arguing logic, you can have a good grasp of tested information, but doesn't mean that since you wen through med school, you are necessarily right. Stop citing that murder as proof of that your experience is real, that's all I'm saying. You still base stuff off of assumptions and speculation and of how you would diagnose stuff, even throwing in a bit of how you go about diagnosing, which isn't relevant, since you HAVE NOT SEEN THIS GUY. Stop stretching facts and clouding your argument.

being harassed by someone above or equal to you in rank sucks.

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was it necessary to attempt to show how you outrank me because you went through medical school and threw such jargon at me when it had no relevance to how i was arguing that you shouldn't cite that incident?

And so the pissing contest begins

I love SDN gossip

Aster,

I think knowing several people who knew this student does give me good background information into what happened, even if he was not one of my close friends there. You don't have a qualified perspective of Boston University School of Medicine (BUSM) because you haven't matriculated anywhere yet!!

You aren't from the school and haven't attended medical school so you have an opinion of that of an outsider. Maybe after you have completed medical school you would understand the very real problems some schools have.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out the harassment that this student suffered, although the school administration would rather it not be known.

EVERY patient/person who is disturbed is affected by the biopsychosocial model of psychiatric disorders. You would know this if you actually had any medical training. It is perfectly reasonable to question and evaluate the harsh environment which doubtlessly contributed, to one degree or another, to the outcome.

Are you saying that harassment by BUSM faculty, which appeared to have occurred, played no role? Many, many, many faculty and students believed that it did. These are the little dark secrets that BUSM attempts to coverup and obviously don't want applicants to know about, but should be brought to light.

.Wow. I am a BUSM MD-PhD student and I registered here to compose a response to Amelia but then I realized I was attempting to reason with a disgruntled BUSM grad/current resident who spends her scarce free time on SDN psychoanalyzing strangers and complaining about being verbally abused as a BUSM student while simultaneously flaming any pre-meds here who question her accusations.
.

Sofiya said:

.Wow. I am a BUSM MD-PhD student and I registered here to compose a response to Amelia but then I realized I was attempting to reason with a disgruntled BUSM grad/current resident who spends her scarce free time on SDN psychoanalyzing strangers and complaining about being verbally abused as a BUSM student while simultaneously flaming any pre-meds here who question her accusations.
.

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As an incoming BUSM student that has visited BU several times, it's hard for me to believe what Amelia is saying, but still, I haven't matriculated yet. Sofiya, can you respond in any way to her comments on faculty responsiveness?

Amelia said:

Aster,

I think knowing several people who knew this student does give me good background information into what happened, even if he was not one of my close friends there. You don't have a qualified perspective of Boston University School of Medicine (BUSM) because you haven't matriculated anywhere yet!!

You aren't from the school and haven't attended medical school so you have an opinion of that of an outsider. Maybe after you have completed medical school you would understand the very real problems some schools have.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out the harassment that this student suffered, although the school administration would rather it not be known.

EVERY patient/person who is disturbed is affected by the biopsychosocial model of psychiatric disorders. You would know this if you actually had any medical training. It is perfectly reasonable to question and evaluate the harsh environment which doubtlessly contributed, to one degree or another, to the outcome.

Are you saying that harassment by BUSM faculty, which appeared to have occurred, played no role? Many, many, many faculty and students believed that it did. These are the little dark secrets that BUSM attempts to coverup and obviously don't want applicants to know about, but should be brought to light.

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Amelia,

This is just gone on way too long. If you are so close to the guy who committed the murder, then why not mention it earlier. As this argument progresses, you seem to adapt your argument in a way to credit yourself more. First, it was a big generalization, then you modified it to say it was a rumor, now you're saying you have closer contact to the man yourself from a friend of a friend. Just think about that, a friend of a friend is still not primary source, things get twisted. I am basing my story off of news articles, which although bias, are more objective then some random person on the forums saying i knew a person that knew a person that knew this one man that killed another dude because of a similar experience i had with BUSM faculty.

You're also continuing to try to throw your seniority into this argument, which is unnecessary. I do not care if I am not a BUSM student, nor do I think your status has any relevance to the fact that what you based one of your supporting evidence on was solely speculation, and then constant modification of your argument from what I stated earlier (cause-effect -> rumor -> friend of a friend...). Don't forget, knowing a friend of a friend is still pretty much in the realm of rumor, unless you can get it from the primary source. You keep defending yourself with circular logic here and just manipulating information.

I have in no way said your biopsychological model is incorrect. You seem to be applying it in a way it wasn't meant. That's equivalent to watching someone get interviewed on TV and trying to diagnose them...it may have worked on House, MD, but it certainly won't be too accurate. Face the facts, whether or not you have medical training, doesn't necessarily make the guy your patient that you can accurately diagnose. If that was the case, why see a patient at all when you can just have them send video footage of their behavior...but anyways, i regress.

Are you saying that harassment by BUSM faculty, which appeared to have occurred, played no role?

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Please...do throw more information into this without citing anything that isn't within your personal realm of control like friend of a friend or rumor. A news article would even suffice since you wouldn't have immediate control to manipulate what you want to defend your argument. Stop clouding what this argument is actually about and just stay within the boundaries of whether or not you know enough information first-hand, or from a credible source, to credit the murderer to BUSM faculty harassing him.

Circumstantial reasoning will not do. You can't just defend yourself by asking rhetorically, for example, "wouldn't that make sense if he committed the crime because he was harassed by BUSM faculty, was ticked off, and then it just fit into whatever diagnosee model I have?". You're going in circles by trying to apply your medical training to a situation in which it is not needed. It's simple...if you know this guy first hand and can get him to tell you specifically that those events occurred and did tick him off, then you were right to begin with. Otherwise, you keep on speculating and defending yourself. Everything you say doesn't have to be proven correct with citation, but don't expect people to believe it when you throw in some wild story that captures attention in order to bring about your point. That is when you need to cite something, in which you still have not yet done, besides your own self and your own friends' friend's connection.

It is perfectly reasonable to question and evaluate the harsh environment which doubtlessly contributed, to one degree or another, to the outcome.

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True...but as I said, you still have not yet shown any evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in terms of credible source that you know that this man experienced harassment by BUSM faculty. All you have is that you experienced it too, and then in 2001, some BUSM student murdered some man. Can I go as far as to say that maybe that Japanese man that just went on a rampage yesterday stabbing people in Tokyo was set off because he was being harassed at work, assuming that I work at the same company and experienced harassment? I can't say that because I don't know him, nor his personal story. That's stretching it a bit but that's basically how you're arguing.

tbo said:

Hehe, agreed. It at least used to be the most expensive undergrad in America. Hey, but they got a nice gym...............

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Two words: Lazy River.

DickyV said:

Two words: Lazy River.

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Don't you mean, Dirty Water?

If the student uses the psychological stress in his defense while on the stand, then it is valid to bring up in this argument. Otherwise, it is just rampant speculation. His previous experience as an Israeli commando likely had much more to do with how this all went down then his medical training. As a med student, you do not resolve conflicts by slashing someone and then later shooting them with a 9mm. As a commando, this may indeed be necessary.

The student in question was admitted to BUSM in 1994. At that time, there were no criminal backgrounds checks as part of the admissions process. This year, BUSM is part of a pilot program of 10 schools that require criminal background checks.

The topic of this thread is "Why is BUSOM so Expensive?"

Please return to that topic alone.

Orthodoc40 said:

Don't you mean, Dirty Water?

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lol! yes, the person really meant "lazy river" as in the rehab/relaxation device, one part of the gorgeous, extravagantly costly BU gym (which, of course, sits within a stone's throw of the famous "dirty water," the Charles River). in short, the pp is (I assume) implying that BU (whether the SM, undergrad, or any other division) is so bloody expensive because the tuition goes toward such luxuries. see this story:

http://media.www.dailyfreepress.com...tive.The.Myth.Of.The.Lazy.River-2306173.shtml

NY Musicologist said:

lol! yes, the person really meant "lazy river" as in the rehab/relaxation device, one part of the gorgeous, extravagantly costly BU gym (which, of course, sits within a stone's throw of the famous "dirty water," the Charles River). in short, the pp is (I assume) implying that BU (whether the SM, undergrad, or any other division) is so bloody expensive because the tuition goes toward such luxuries. see this story:

http://media.www.dailyfreepress.com...tive.The.Myth.Of.The.Lazy.River-2306173.shtml

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Musicologist. Precisely what I meant.

HumidBeing said:

The topic of this thread is "Why is BUSOM so Expensive?"

Please return to that topic alone.

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There's hardly a single thread in the history of the internet that hasn't been highjacked to some extent. Why are you busting this one?

In general, I think this thread has opened some of the more valuable and candid discussion of BUSM I've seen lately. It's not a flame war or hopelessly off-topic. I say let it go.