Becoming a Physician Scientist: PhD-to-MD Student Experiences

QofQuimica said:

1) What type of pathway are you taking to become a physician scientist, and how far along are you?

I'm a PhD-to-MD, now finishing my first year of medical school. My PhD is in pharmaceutical chemistry. Basically I did organic synthesis.

2) What general advice do you have for people who want to become physician scientists by the same route you took?

Wow, this is a really tough road to getting an MD/PhD, probably the hardest way to go about it. I'm not just saying that because it's what I did, but because you have the lowest chance of getting the MD this way. I suggest that you should not plan on going this route if you're currently in college; it's really a route meant for people who come to realize they want to go to med school after the fact. If you're in college, you'd be a lot better off applying MD/PhD or straight MD and then you can do a PhD later. You're probably also going to have to pay for your MD if you go the PhD-to-MD route.

3) What application advice would you give to people who want to follow your track?

There are two really important things that you must do if you're a PhD who wants to go to medical school.

First, you must have a very good explanation for why you cannot accomplish your career goals with just your PhD. Make sure to explain this clearly in your PS and reinforce it at your interviews. You are coming in already possessing a professional degree, and it's not cool to be thirty years old and telling the interviewer that you don't know what you want to be when you grow up. You need to have a plan that seems well-thought-out, even if you reserve the right to change your mind later.

Second, you MUST go through all of the same hoops that any other MD applicant goes through. It's essential that you have the grades and MCAT scores you need to get into med school. When I say grades, I mean undergrad grades in particular. You will NOT be given special treatment or consideration for MD applications just because you have a PhD. In addition, you must have clinically relevant shadowing and volunteering experience. If you're not already shadowing and volunteering, you should start, yesterday. Again, your PhD is basically like a nice EC. It doesn't compensate for crappy college grades or a low MCAT, and it doesn't compensate for a lack of other ECs that med schools are looking for from applicants.

Where to apply: Definitely apply to all of your state schools. I would advise getting an MSAR and looking through it for other schools that have research missions, assuming you're still interested in doing research. You may also need to retake some of your pre-reqs if you took them a long time ago. Check with every school about their requirements; they vary widely.

4) What do you wish you had done differently if you could do it all again?

If I could go back ten years ago and give my college senior self advice, I'd have told her to apply to joint MD/PhD programs. If she couldn't get into one, I'd have told her to go MD-to-PhD. Seriously, I think that PhD-to-MD should be the choice of last resort, and not something you plan to do all along.

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I would like to add one caveat to this post:
If your PhD is medically relevant and your PI is a clinician as well as a scientist, the road is not necessarily as rough as described above, especially if you're applying to the same institution where you got your PhD. This is because you may be a known quantity. You may know faculty that carry weight or actually be members of the admissions committee. However, you have to be willing to use these personal contacts as a "foot in the door" kind of thing. I'm not saying you don't have to take the MCAT or whatever, but that you are in a position where your influece or that of your colleagues may help you tremendously in the application process.

I would also agree that this is the last way you should approach the MD/PhD.

1) What type of pathway are you taking to become a physician scientist, and how far along are you?

I'm a PhD to MD, currently finishing up 3rd year (I guess I'm in year #7, since my PhD took 4 years and I only had 2 weeks between my defense and the start of med school). I went to a completely different school, state, and part of the country for med school.

2) What general advice do you have for people who want to become physician scientists by the same route you took?

I would agree with Q that this isn't really a route you "plan" to take, so much as it's a route that you take when you see your professional goals changing and just go for it. I had absolutely no plans for med school when I started grad school, and only became interested as my research became more clinical and my professional interests changed. I started studying for the MCATs essentially as a hobby, and continued to keep the door open for basic science research throughout the interview process (even to the point of interviewing for, and getting offers for post-docs at the same time). I also agree with Q that you still have to have the undergrad grades and MCAT scores of a non-PhD,and most schools won't even see that you are finishing the degree until after you've passed their "screening" process anyway (but once you have the interview, it's a pretty golden topic to discuss...) My advice for those who are already in grad school and think of an MD is to go for it - it's the expensive way, no doubt, but when it's all said and done I have been able to use my background to have a very positive med school experience. For example, I was able to easily publish a case report between 1st and 2nd year (they're a joke compared to real manuscripts), and I'm trying to get some research into my 4th year schedule (and finding I'm "in demand" for this b/c of my background). I have been able to tutor extensively (and I love to teach). My background and pre-formed study habits have contributed, I assume, to my performance in classes/clerkships (at least so far). I have also had great experiences with deans and faculty members who have treated me as more of a peer than a student at times, and have been able to pursue some administrative stuff that I've enjoyed. As for being older, to be honest I don't think I was mature enough to do the job I'm doing now straight out of college - I did an awful lot of partying in grad school that wouldn't really work here...

3) What application advice would you give to people who want to follow your track?

Have a good reason for applying to med school and be able to explain it well. As I said above, it only really helps in the interview (and obviously it will be the bulk of your PS). If you like your location/school, by all means focus on staying there. My life would have been a lot more simple (and a heck of a lot cheaper!) had I been able to stay where I was doing my research, but family obligations trumped it. Do well on the MCATs if you haven't already taken them - your undergrad grades are out of your hands, and it didn't seem like anyone looked at my grad school grades. Don't let people talk you out of it if it's what you want. Finish your PhD!! If it even appears like you're willing to leave for med school before finishing your degree it's a big red flag. Go where you want to go. Go where you feel most comfortable. Oddly enough, I went from a large research university to a med school that is much more clinically oriented - with a Very small graduate program. It has been refreshing to be in a different environment. Much like research, the world of medicine is a "what have you done for me lately" kind of thing. Think of a great residency like a great post-doc position. What you do your residency in, and where you do it, will likely mean a lot more for your future academic career than where your degree is from. My personal belief is that your best chance to getting post-graduate spot of your dreams is going to a med school where you're confortable and doing well there (but this is quite different from the SDN majority, I know)

4) What do you wish you had done differently if you could do it all again?

Hard to answer, since I didn't know what I wanted until I found it. Had I always wanted to be an MD/PhD, then obviously the MSTP route is far superior - but it wasn't even on my radar (nor did I have the grades in college to get it had I tried). I guess I'd have gone to a cheaper med school if I had the opportunity, but Mrs Universe Explorer has dreams of her own, and what's a couple hundred thousand in the long run (facial tic...shudder...)? As of now, I regret nothing - I had a great undergrad experience (lots of travel, lots of fun many pre-meds seemed to miss out on), a great grad school experience (great lab, good schedule, stimulating), and so far, a pretty good med school experience. I found a specialty I love, and when ("if", gulp!) I match I get to figure out a way to use all of my training for a fun, productive career.

1) What type of pathway are you taking to become a physician scientist, and how far along are you?

I'm a PhD-to-MD, now half-way through internship at an Ivy League medical center on the East Coast. I completed a Ph.D. in 3.5 years (included 18 months of painful, difficult classes). I also completed two postdoctoral fellowships simultaneously – one in basic research and one in chemical pathology (I was board eligible at the time of applying to medical school). I interviewed for and was offered faculty positions at two premiere medical centers (one of them in Northern California) at the same time that I was interviewing for medical school. The job offers back then included a 6-figure salary, and I was debt free. That was hard to walk away from a career development and fiscal perspective.

2) What general advice do you have for people who want to become physician scientists by the same route you took?

Get used to delayed gratification. You've just committed to a minimum of 7 additional years of arduous training, and you'll now be paying for it. Do not do this unless there is a very good reason. You may have gone through a nightmare to get your PhD and you may be accomplished, but you will effectively be starting from the beginning again in medical school. Nobody cares. Everything you did before that does not matter, and you will have no special advantage. You will likely become frustrated in the first year of medical school when everything is so unbelievably basic, but the level of memorization to pass your exams is staggering.

Expect to become frustrated by some of the PhD basic science faculty who may be teaching things you happen to have special expertise in. One or two of them will not like medical students, and they may be medical school rejects themselves. Keep a low profile; nothing good can come of them knowing your story. If they are doing a bad job and confusing the class, you need to bite your tongue and give them what they want to pass their exam. If you understand something well, it's hard to un-learn that then re-learn it another way based on how someone else understands and chooses to present the material. Basic physiology was taught by a particularly incompetent person where I went to medical school, and it was hard to see some of my classmates remediate this class because the teaching was so sub-standard. Once you hit third-year, this will be a distant memory.

Try to stay involved in research if you can in medical school. I did, and published a couple of abstracts, and submitted a manuscript. I also presented at a national conference. Residency interviews will be upon you quickly, and keeping your hand in research further emphasizes that you are serious about being a physician-scientist. This is a massive advantage for residency application, and your PhD really will give you an extra boost – even if your grades and board scores are pretty average. Medicine is not rocket science. The directors of the top residency programs know this, and they are looking to recruit the next crop of people who understand research. You don't have to be the smartest or hardest-working. They like unusual people. PhD-to-MDs are unusual.

3) What application advice would you give to people who want to follow your track?

You have to make your transition from research to medicine look as logical as possible. For some PhD-to-MD students, a change of heart may be closer to reality, but expect to be asked some difficult questions at the interview. I was asked: "are you sure you actually need an MD." You need to have decent grades and MCAT scores to get the attention of the Admissions Committee. Graduate grades really do not mean much. Neither does a PhD. You have to look as close to a regular applicant as possible.


4) What do you wish you had done differently if you could do it all again?

If you really want to be an MD, there is little that will satisfy this, and you should do it. Just be ready for how you are going to change during medical school and residency. I am far less idealistic than I used to be because a stressful career in medicine permits little time or room for idealism. You just have to perform.

I wish I had taken the MCAT more seriously before applying. This can make or break your application. It's such basic material, but you need to give it the respect it deserves. A good score might not get you into your first-choice medical school, but a bad score can keep you out of any medical school forever. As a 50-year-old in my class once stated (they were also a PhD-to-MD): "it's not a case of liking or not liking this type of assessment. That's the way the game is played."

I wish I had changed my study technique a little earlier to see what worked best for me in medical school. Pay attention to your traditional classmates who may have great study techniques. I did increasingly better as medical school went on, but the memorization in MSI was way harder than I expected. I wasn't sure I was going to make it that first semester. Like many other PhDs, I was always trained to think rather than memorize, but medical school will bury you if you persist with this attitude. It just moves too quickly. I was an SD below the mean in more than one exam in MSI, but did far better in MSII (and, unlike most medical students, I found MSII easier because it relied more on understanding). I did even better in MSIII and MSVI where I got mostly honors in the core rotations. By the time I took the USMLEs, I had it down. Again, don't keep using the same study technique if it is not working.

I'm not particularly smart or gifted, I'm just persistent. Medicine (like science) rewards persistence. If I can do it, you can too.

I this thread!!!
Thanks, everyone, for the candid, detailed replies to the questions. They're invaluable in adding some perspective to this difficult path. I'm one of the many ppl out there who wish to do the MD as well after committing to a PhD. I can't thank you guys enough for the responses. Keep 'em coming!

I also really enjoy reading this thread. I am in a similar position. I have a PhD, want to get my MD and am currently a postdoc studying for the MCAT.

I realize that the posts are from several years ago, but if there are any people reading that have successfully done the transition, I would very much appreciate if I could ask more detailed questions about schools, interviews, etc. Thanks so much!

I wanted to thank you for the posts on this thread. I am a fourth year graduate student in medicinal chemistry. I have discovered a true passion for ER tox through friends, discussion and constant involvement in helping them out with their cases. I have struggled with this decision for some time. Going back to ground zero is not an easy thing to swallow. I am sure however that it is the only way that I will be able to accomplish my dreams. I am currently applying to MD as well as DO programs. I wanted to ask what your opinions on doing a DO PhD the hard way might be.

ChemMed said:

I wanted to thank you for the posts on this thread. I am a fourth year graduate student in medicinal chemistry. I have discovered a true passion for ER tox through friends, discussion and constant involvement in helping them out with their cases. I have struggled with this decision for some time. Going back to ground zero is not an easy thing to swallow. I am sure however that it is the only way that I will be able to accomplish my dreams. I am currently applying to MD as well as DO programs. I wanted to ask what your opinions on doing a DO PhD the hard way might be.

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There's no distinction between what a D.O. or M.D. can do in allopathic residencies. Just realize that if your goal is academic medicine and if bench research is the medium for this, then this (bench research) is inconsistent with the D.O. philosophy. There are people that do it, but they usually don't 'hit the ground running'. Either way you can make your career pretty much any way you want. Good luck!

There's no distinction between what a D.O. or M.D. can do in allopathic residencies. Just realize that if your goal is academic medicine and if bench research is the medium for this, then this (bench research) is inconsistent with the D.O. philosophy. There are people that do it, but they usually don't 'hit the ground running'. Either way you can make your career pretty much any way you want. Good luck!

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Thanks for the luck, I can use all I can get, whether I need it or not this is a difficult process. You are right about the D.O. philosophy, but there seems to be a very strong desire for the D.O. community to conduct more research. It seems like a very plausible avenue. If there are any D.O. - PhD's who have advice on this I am very interested in hearing it. Thank you for your response.

There are relatively few DO/PhDs out there compared to MD/PhDs, but I can't see why it would be much different to do a DO/PhD versus an MD/PhD. You have the same prereqs, you take the same MCAT, you study the same subjects along with some manipulation, you take different boards with the option of taking MD boards and applying to MD residencies if you want to. Really, the main drawback I can think of is that most DO schools are private and therefore bound to be relatively expensive compared to a state MD school.

BTW, feel free to PM me if you want to talk about chem -> med transition stuff. I have my MS in med chem, PhD in pharmaceutical chem and now in my fourth year of med school.

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Thanks for the encouragement and the offer of advice. I will take you up on it. Again, if there are any D.O. - PhDs who are willing to share their experiences with me I would be grateful. If you know of anyone I might be able to talk to that would also be helpful. Thanks again. Cheers.

Three questions for anyone who has gone this route (PhD-->MD/DO):

1. Did you get a single LOR from a pre-med committee and/or several from PI's, former professors, doctors whom you've shadowed, etc.?

2. Did anyone have to retake prereq classes because of the time gap between graduating UG and earning your PhD? For example, some schools don't accept MCAT scores that are 3 years or older. Did anyone encounter a similar scenario with prereq classes?

3. I'm just curious: at what age did you enter med-school?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

maybenexttime said:

Three questions for anyone who has gone this route (PhD-->MD/DO):
1. Did you get a single LOR from a pre-med committee and/or several from PI's, former professors, doctors whom you've shadowed, etc.?
2. Did anyone have to retake prereq classes because of the time gap between graduating UG and earning your PhD? For example, some schools don't accept MCAT scores that are 3 years or older. Did anyone encounter a similar scenario with prereq classes?
3. I'm just curious: at what age did you enter med-school?
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

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1. I had a letter from my thesis advisor, one letter from someone on my committee, and one from a community outreach program that I worked with. I also used the premed committee letter from my school. No letter from a physician....who knows I probably could have used one.
2. I didn't have to retake anything, but I had some missing prereqs. Had to take basic biology (at my home institution) and a semester of english (just did this through an online community college course - cheap and not too time consuming!).
3. After a long but relatively average length phd for my field: I was close to 30.

Ok, cool, thanks for the reply. I have a few other questions: when did some of you apply? During the year wrapping up research/prepping thesis & defense? While performing a postdoc or employed? In what area did you get a PhD (I'm sure for some of you it may not have necessarily been a science)?
Thanks again.

Awesome, QofQ, thanks for the info! By the way, I've also been working as an organic chemist, on and off again, for the past 7 years, although not in anything as groundbreaking as medicinal chemistry. My work has been exclusively in the flavors and fragrances industry, so I've essentially been in the business of re-inventing the wheel . Anyway, thanks again for your input, and I'd be more than happy to hear replies from anyone else.

I am getting my LOR's from my two advisers, a DO, two MDs and two falculty who are friends that I have collaborated with.

I will not be retaking any UG courses and do not need to.

I will be applying this cycle and I graduate in October.

I will be 30 or 31 when I matriculate.

My PhD will be in medicinal chemistry .

I also applied while wrapping things up, but the process really starts early...mostly had interviews that final year. Physical chemistry PhD.

Off the subject, but have to say, I really miss those days in the lab, even though I spent a big effort trying to get into medicine. Probably re-inventing history a little in my mind. But I had more control of my life than I did compared to all of med school and intern year.

ChemMed said:

Thanks for the luck, I can use all I can get, whether I need it or not this is a difficult process. You are right about the D.O. philosophy, but there seems to be a very strong desire for the D.O. community to conduct more research. It seems like a very plausible avenue. If there are any D.O. - PhD's who have advice on this I am very interested in hearing it. Thank you for your response.

Thanks for the encouragement and the offer of advice. I will take you up on it. Again, if there are any D.O. - PhDs who are willing to share their experiences with me I would be grateful. If you know of anyone I might be able to talk to that would also be helpful. Thanks again. Cheers.

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I would go MD post-PhD and not do DO. Historically, and it still is the case, MDs are the ones that invest time and energy in to medical research and advancing science. DO schools are mostly private and only interested in clinical (despite what some may say). My personal experience says otherwise.

This is my opinion and doesn't count for much, other than personal experience. Ultimately they path you take is up to you and you will live with the benefits and losses.

BozoSparky said:

I also applied while wrapping things up, but the process really starts early...mostly had interviews that final year. Physical chemistry PhD.

Off the subject, but have to say, I really miss those days in the lab, even though I spent a big effort trying to get into medicine. Probably re-inventing history a little in my mind. But I had more control of my life than I did compared to all of med school and intern year.

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I feel the same way and can't wait to get in to a research track residency.
Life is more enjoyable with the two together, clinical and research.

I think there will be things that I will like about MD /DO and things I wont. I am also sure that there will be things I will miss from my lab years and things I will not. Either game has good and bad, but when I am done with these mixed odious/joyful years of training my ultimate goal is to combine the best of both and minimize the unpleasant. Maybe, I would try to make it easier for the next generation. It is not easy selling so much school time on top of residency plus a postdoc.

Ultimately if I could see myself happy doing anything else then I would do it. This is not an easy path and I know I have years of struggle ahead of me. I am love with this path and my life is at peace knowing this is what I truly want. Having said that, that conclusion was one of the hardest I ever made and no one should go down this road and take it lightly. If you really want it though then go for it.

maybenexttime said:

1. Did you get a single LOR from a pre-med committee and/or several from PI's, former professors, doctors whom you've shadowed, etc.?

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I never bothered to learn what the term "pre-medical committee" was. I just knew I didn't have one. I obtained letters from my PhD advisor, a thesis committee member, and my post-doc advisor. All were MD/PhDs or MDs doing research. I never shadowed.

maybenexttime said:

2. Did anyone have to retake prereq classes because of the time gap between graduating UG and earning your PhD? For example, some schools don't accept MCAT scores that are 3 years or older. Did anyone encounter a similar scenario with prereq classes?

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No. I only took two prereq's that I never took 10 years before applying (physics 1 and 2).

maybenexttime said:

3. I'm just curious: at what age did you enter med-school?

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I was 28. That was 5 years ago. I have aged considerably.

maybenexttime said:

when did some of you apply? During the year wrapping up research/prepping thesis & defense? While performing a postdoc or employed?

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While employed.

maybenexttime said:

In what area did you get a PhD

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Pharmacology.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Please keep them coming!

Scottish Chap, I have a question for you: How has earning a PhD in pharmacology aided you during your medical training so far? The reason I ask is because my wife, most of her family, and her circle of friends are all pharmacists and one of the biggest complaints that they have is the level of knowledge most physicians have of drugs (versus theirs), and the problems that often arise as a result. This would seem to be a legitimate complaint since, for all intents and purposes, they are the drug experts, right? It could also be anecdotal, I don't know. But has your experience been different since you probably rank up their with that level of expertise?

By the way, they all seem to agree that problems (and by problems I mean harmful drug-drug interactions, wrong dosages, prescribing out-dated drugs, etc) arise more frequently with residents (makes sense, they're training after all) & private practice physicians (GPs, mostly).

maybenexttime said:

Thanks everyone for the replies. Please keep them coming!

Scottish Chap, I have a question for you: How has earning a PhD in pharmacology aided you during your medical training so far? The reason I ask is because my wife, most of her family, and her circle of friends are all pharmacists and one of the biggest complaints that they have is the level of knowledge most physicians have of drugs (versus theirs), and the problems that often arise as a result. This would seem to be a legitimate complaint since, for all intents and purposes, they are the drug experts, right? It could also be anecdotal, I don't know. But has your experience been different since you probably rank up their with that level of expertise?

By the way, they all seem to agree that problems (and by problems I mean harmful drug-drug interactions, wrong dosages, prescribing out-dated drugs, etc) arise more frequently with residents (makes sense, they're training after all) & private practice physicians (GPs, mostly).

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I don't know if you mind me commenting or not... but just because someone does a PhD in Pharmacology it is not the same as PhD in Pharmacy (this may be different in the case of ScotCap). Graduate work in Pharmacology is studying a or more drugs on an organ system, and not studying all drugs.

Most Physicians / Residents just rely on computer programs or books to tell them what to Rx for medication. You pick up the interactions etc... as you learn on the job and using your PDA.

docbill said:

I don't know if you mind me commenting or not...

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Nope, I'll be happy to read any and all comments.

i have a question about if everyone that's gone PhD->MD still considering an academic track after they graduate? For example the 20/80 clinical vs research time split? What WOULD be a good reason to get an MD if I still want to do research most of the time?

thanks

ktnu06 said:

i have a question about if everyone that's gone PhD->MD still considering an academic track after they graduate? For example the 20/80 clinical vs research time split? What WOULD be a good reason to get an MD if I still want to do research most of the time?

thanks

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For me the academic route is what I really want to do, but I am not motivated in science unless I know what I am doing has a direct clinical effect. I need to see it working in patients. I primarily want to work in translational research while keeping one foot in the clinic. This is an ideal situation for my personality. If you do not need to get the MD/DO to do what you want with your career, then don't. Seven years and 6 figure debt is not a responsibility that should be taken lightly, nor is it necessary if you can do what you want without it. Good luck.

ktnu06 said:

i have a question about if everyone that's gone PhD->MD still considering an academic track after they graduate? For example the 20/80 clinical vs research time split? What WOULD be a good reason to get an MD if I still want to do research most of the time?

thanks

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I want to do mainly clinical work. I'm not sure that it would be worth it to go to medical school unless you wanted to do clinical work most of the time, although I can understand other perspectives on that. (Frankly, I'm not sure it could be worth it to go to medical school for any reason, ever, but it's a little too late now...)

I've heard that PhD->MD people are considered less likely to engage in research than those in integrated programs, mainly because we are in a sense switching away from a path that would lead to a 100% research career.

OMG... So many phds! So many chem people! So encouraging!
I'm a chemistry phd too, although what I'm doing is mostly biochemistry stuff. I will graduate in December 2010 and will have to go to some postbac program to retake all those perquisite courses (undergraduate degree outside the US).
Nice to meet all of you guys!

Sunshadow welcome to the group.

As you all went PhD->MD, I was wondering what any of you thought of my situation - I am about to start a biomedical PhD program but I am realizing I want an MD too (see post http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=743169 ) - any advice? Who can I turn to (I don't think I can really talk with my PhD program or the school's MSTP program without it making me look really bad...)?

secondguesser said:

As you all went PhD->MD, I was wondering what any of you thought of my situation - I am about to start a biomedical PhD program but I am realizing I want an MD too (see post http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=743169 ) - any advice? Who can I turn to (I don't think I can really talk with my PhD program or the school's MSTP program without it making me look really bad...)?

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Talk to your program, don't worry so much about appearances. Try to avoid doing both degrees if you can, and if not then try to avoid doing them sequentially as it is the most expensive and inefficient pathway.

By "talk" to the school/program, what is the best way: email, phone, or in person (I live very close to the school)?

I would make an appointment with the head of the department that you are interested in joining. Additionally, talk to your adviser about your choice if you have one. I would do this in person if you can. It makes you seem a bit more serious about your decision and once that is made do not change your mind, it makes you look wishy washy. Know this is what you want before you talk to them. If you do not have an adviser then talk to the head of your program if you are already accepted. I went through this and had many of the same questions regarding who I should talk to, but in the end the best policy was honesty with everyone once my mind was made up. The difference for me was that I was 3 years into my PhD when I realized this. Do not do a PhD-->MD if you do not have to. It is pricey and takes a long time. I'm doing it because I have no other option open to me. Oh, and MSTP's will not accept you generally from a PhD program into their program, but they will accept MD's in their first or second year who are interested in their program and meet the requirements to join. You do not get special treatment. Good luck.

I don't want to look wishywashy - but seriously, how do people do it? Commit to a training path for 15 years (MSTP, residency, postdoc fellowship, etc)? (or a PhD, which will be about 10) How do you know that you are doing the right thing - deciding (feels like locking down) your career path until you are middle aged? Most people (outside of the medical sciences) can try something for a few years, 5 years, 10 years, bounce around without deciding their entire career at age 22. Obviously, you get experience in the lab, doing clinical volunteer work, and all that jazz, but even with all that, how do I really know "in my heart" what I want? Even with a ton of experience? How do I know if my cold feet at the start of my PhD program is something I should really listen to? Perhaps this is why I have tried unsuccessfully for three years to make this decision. But my career is such a huge decision that I can't just, pick something and go with it.

You can't really know, which is part of why there is such high attrition from the PhD pathway (well, that and the excess of trainees relative to faculty jobs, creating a pyramidal system). The only reason there isn't equally high attrition from MD training is that the high debt load leaves most people without the choice of leaving.

You just have to think about it, try to be honest with yourself, and make the best decision you can at the time. And then make the best of what comes.

secondguesser said:

I don't want to look wishywashy - but seriously, how do people do it? Commit to a training path for 15 years (MSTP, residency, postdoc fellowship, etc)? (or a PhD, which will be about 10) How do you know that you are doing the right thing - deciding (feels like locking down) your career path until you are middle aged? Most people (outside of the medical sciences) can try something for a few years, 5 years, 10 years, bounce around without deciding their entire career at age 22. Obviously, you get experience in the lab, doing clinical volunteer work, and all that jazz, but even with all that, how do I really know "in my heart" what I want? Even with a ton of experience? How do I know if my cold feet at the start of my PhD program is something I should really listen to? Perhaps this is why I have tried unsuccessfully for three years to make this decision. But my career is such a huge decision that I can't just, pick something and go with it.

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I personally think I have a death wish by slow mental overload followed by rapid degradation in my 80s. Seriously though I'm a glutton for punishment and love chasing the ever elusive 'ah ha' moment. God, bless science for this mentally and emotionally polar addiction. Medicine can be bench to bedside and if I have to wait to get there then I will.

Honestly, my path has been anything but a straight line. I went from journalism to biology to chemistry to medical chemistry and pharmacognosy now to medicine. I always followed the direction that felt the truest to my career desires. The problem I have is being able to see how they are all connected. It has led me to the bench to bedside concept and now I know that is my end goal. It took 7 years to figure that out. Give yourself time to evolve into who you are and will be. Pick the path that feels true to you even if you have some doubts remember you have time to figure them out later if need be. But you have to at least try.

QofQuimica said:

However, I realized that being a chem grad student/post doc was one thing, while being a supervisor was another. I didn't want to do something where my only responsibility besides getting grants would be to supervise other people without ever being able to get my own hands dirty. One thing that is nice about medicine is that you have so much more flexibility than you do with just a PhD. It's not uncommon for people to have part-time clinical responsibilities, and when you're in clinic, you're seeing patients, not just watching other people see them.

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This is one to the reasons I want to get an MD - I am scared of the post postdoc life/career... (of course I have other very good reasons too for wanting an MD, but this is a motivating factor)

secondguesser said:

This is one to the reasons I want to get an MD - I am scared of the post postdoc life/career... (of course I have other very good reasons too for wanting an MD, but this is a motivating factor)

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Indeed the reason I am converting to the MD from the PhD is I want ultimate flexibility as well as income is a big factor. I know one too many PhDs that are constantly fighting and scared because they may not get "the grant".... the MD will have the income, significantly higher as well as we all know, and even if she or he decides to do research and doesnt get the grant as an MD they are still more financially stable than the PhD alone.

UdaktariKwawatu said:

Indeed the reason I am converting to the MD from the PhD is I want ultimate flexibility as well as income is a big factor. I know one too many PhDs that are constantly fighting and scared because they may not get "the grant".... the MD will have the income, significantly higher as well as we all know, and even if she or he decides to do research and doesnt get the grant as an MD they are still more financially stable than the PhD alone.

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I am wondering if there are programs for PhDs to transition to the MD as a medical scientist? I've got a dual degree in chemistry & molecular/cellular bio and PhD experience in protein chemistry/enzymology & electrochemistry. My postdoc (in a Medical School) has been broadly based in alkylators, hypoxia, and electron transfer....

Can anyone offer advice? Alternatively, if someone has suggestions on moving into the development of medical devices, I would be grateful...

Trunkflare said:

I am wondering if there are programs for PhDs to transition to the MD as a medical scientist? I've got a dual degree in chemistry & molecular/cellular bio and PhD experience in protein chemistry/enzymology & electrochemistry. My postdoc (in a Medical School) has been broadly based in alkylators, hypoxia, and electron transfer....

Can anyone offer advice? Alternatively, if someone has suggestions on moving into the development of medical devices, I would be grateful...

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Hi Trunkflare,

I have a similar background in protein chemistry and structural biology. As of now, I intend on applying to medical school but will most likely explore clinical development in big pharma before making the commitment. I've interviewed with one company. I'll be happy to talk about my experience thus far. Send me a pm.

Hello everyone! First time seeing this thread. Wish I had found it when I was applying.

Anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and offer advice. I am 6 weeks away from defending my PhD in Neuroscience (knock on wood) and 4 months from starting medschool. PhD to MD is difficult but there are perks as I found myself a very competitive applicant compared to traditional pre-meds on the interview trail, especially since my PhD is medically related.

Just make sure it is really what you want and be able to explain it, also be prepared to use any contacts you have at schools you're applying to. This is priceless trust me!

I'll add my two cents in although I never finished my PhD and ended up with a MS in microbiology instead.

Don't be afraid to be real in your interviews about why you want to go to medical school. I was honest and straightforward when I said that I didn't particularly care for basic research anymore. I interviewed at 3 places (2 MD/1 DO) and every interviewer was extremely positive about my motivations because I was clear and concise. I went into research because I enjoyed the bench work at the time and I also wanted to contribute to scientific knowledge. It took some time before I realized that bench work sucked and I can contribute to scientific knowledge in more than 1 way.

Also, from friends at MD/PhD programs who are also adcoms, be aware that PhD applicants are held to a higher standard. They most definitely like to see clear reasons for this career change and having great MCAT scores (>32) is almost a requirement.