Rad onc rankings

I second that.

Any recent thoughts on OHSU's program after the latest interview season? I know it's a small program, but any thougths on specific strengths or weaknesses?

Sorry. This question would probably be better in the interview impressions thread.
Nevertheless, where would people rank this program. Middle tier?

This is a very solid program. The leadership at the top is outstanding with Dr. Thomas. The new facilities are gorgeous. They have a stable group of very capable and well-regarded UCSF-trained faculty members. I believe they recently recruited a prominent radiobiologist althought I'm not sure. The volume is high and the training is also excellent. In terms of negatives, the residents do seem to have a lot of scut. Also, the program is a virtual unknown outside of the west coast. Their residents have a lot of interesting research going on and seem like nice people. Portland is a very nice, quaint city. Overall, a solid program on a definite upward trajectory. If invited to interview, check it out, you will be very pleasantly surprised.

HueyLewisMD said:

Dr. Alan Pollack of Fox Chase Cancer Center is taking the chair position at the University of Miami.

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That's surprising. Why would he leave Fox to go to Univ of Miami? (Besides the warmer weather?)

Thaiger75 said:

That's surprising. Why would he leave Fox to go to Univ of Miami? (Besides the warmer weather?)

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Check his CV:
MD (87) & PhD (79), University of Miami

I've read the posts over the past few years, but I have to say I'm surprised no recent rankings.

As a community-based radiation oncologist, I have a different perspective. Before I actually give any rankings, here is my take:

1. Pick a program that you feel is a good fit. "Rank" doesn't matter if you're miserable and not able to fully take advantage of your residency training.

2. Given how competitive the field has become, don't stress about rank too much. Just be proactive during residency to ensure you are getting the chance to grow in your clinical skills the way you want.

3. For those ultimately in community medicine/private practice, your academic CV may matter less than you think. More important is demeanor and communication skills.

Any new updates for 2010?

radfolk said:

Any new updates for 2010?

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I think overall, the top programs historically are still the top programs currently. However, there are programs that have had changes in leadership in the last few years (MSKCC, Vanderbilt, WashU, Columbia, UCLA, Miami, Fox Chase, Emory, etc.) and there are those undergoing massive expansion (UPenn), both of which can have an impact on resident training (often in a positive way, but not always).

I think that you'll have better luck getting an answer to your question after match day (or at least after rank lists are certified).

subatomicdoc said:

I've read the posts over the past few years, but I have to say I'm surprised no recent rankings.

As a community-based radiation oncologist, I have a different perspective. Before I actually give any rankings, here is my take:

1. Pick a program that you feel is a good fit. "Rank" doesn't matter if you're miserable and not able to fully take advantage of your residency training.

2. Given how competitive the field has become, don't stress about rank too much. Just be proactive during residency to ensure you are getting the chance to grow in your clinical skills the way you want.

3. For those ultimately in community medicine/private practice, your academic CV may matter less than you think. More important is demeanor and communication skills.

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If you are going into private practice (and ~75% of us are), I really don't think it matters to much where you train unless you want to go to incredibly desirable locations. I base this comment after talking to numerous private practice radiation oncologists and they continually stressed to me that personality, work ethic and general "fit" play the biggest role when they are hiring new grads. The three "A's" of private practice (accessible, affable, ability) were also mentioned numerous times.

To that end, I placed some "prestigious" programs towards the bottom of my rank list because they were in locations far away from family/friends or were not a good fit for me personally. I realize the M.D. class of 2010 just submitted our rank lists, but for the future generations I ask that you please select programs at which you will be happy and fulfilled. Best of luck.

Hi Everyone,
In the interest of generating conversation I ranked all programs listed in the AMA-FRIEDA website. For fun I used the same categories my med school uses to rank us. Here they are. There is no particular order within categories. Thoughts?

Exceptional
Brigham and Women's Hospital/Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center Program
University of Texas M D Anderson Cancer Center Program

Outstanding
Stanford University Program
University of California (San Francisco) Program
Yale-New Haven Medical Center Program
University of Chicago/University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program
Johns Hopkins University Program
University of Michigan Program
William Beaumont Hospital Program
Washington University/B-JH/SLCH Consortium Program
Duke University Hospital Program
University of Pennsylvania Program
University of Wisconsin Program

Excellent
University of Florida Program
University of Maryland Program
Thomas Jefferson University Program
Fox Chase Cancer Center Program
University of Alabama Medical Center Program
UCLA Medical Center Program
University of Colorado Denver Program
New York University School of Medicine Program
University of Rochester Program
University of North Carolina Hospitals Program
UPMC Medical Education Program
Vanderbilt University Medical Center Program
University of Texas Southwestern Medical School Program
University of Utah Program
University of Washington Program

Very Good
Wake Forest University School of Medicine Program
University of California (San Diego) Program
Emory University Program
University of Louisville Program
College of Medicine Mayo Clinic (Rochester) Program
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School Program
Albert Einstein College of Medicine Program
New York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus) Program
Case Western Reserve University/University Hospitals Case Medical Center Program
Cleveland Clinic Foundation Program
Oregon Health & Science University Program
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio Program
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
National Capital Consortium Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program

Good
Georgetown University Hospital Program
University of Arizona Program
City of Hope National Medical Center Program
Loma Linda University Program
University of Southern California/LAC+USC Medical Center Program
Kaiser Permanente Southern California (Los Angeles) Program
University of California (Irvine) Program
University of California (Davis) Health System Program
California Pacific Medical Center Program
College of Medicine Mayo Clinic (Jacksonville) Program
Jackson Memorial Hospital/Jackson Health System Program
University of South Florida Program
Rush University Medical Center Program
Loyola University Program
Indiana University School of Medicine Program
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program
University of Kansas School of Medicine Program
University of Kentucky College of Medicine Program
Tufts Medical Center Program
Henry Ford Hospital Program
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center Program
University of Minnesota Program
University of Mississippi Medical Center Program
University of Nebraska Medical Center College of Medicine Program
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program
New York Methodist Hospital Program
University at Buffalo Program
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens/Cornell University Medical College Program
SUNY Upstate Medical University Program
University Hospital/University of Cincinnati College of Medicine Program
Ohio State University Hospital Program
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center Program
Drexel University College of Medicine/Hahnemann University Hospital Program
Allegheny General Hospital-Western Pennsylvania Hospital Medical Education Consortium (AGH)
Medical University of South Carolina Program
University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals Program
Baylor College of Medicine Program
Methodist Hospital (Houston) Program
University of Virginia Program
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Program

Generally it's more useful if you include some discussion with your rankings. I would like to know, for instance, why you placed Roswell Park and Moffitt CC (two premier institutions that I would've put toward the top) in the bottom 5th. Can you please elaborate?

You definitely should have a methodology for your ranking. Everyone who reads this list will have issues with the rankings. Like 'thesauce', I am also curious how Moffitt received such a low ranking, especially in consideration of Columbia's ranking in a tier above it. Columbia was recenly released from probationary status. And how did Louisville get above/in the same tier as MCW?

I would start by placing every program on probation at the bottom. [Only three such programs, but still...] There's no reason for a program that's on probation to be ranked above a program that's in good standing. Period.

I also don't think that one can create a list that has much validity without spending many years in the academic rad onc community. There are academic chairpersons who know nothing of many of the programs on this list. Nonethless, thanks for creating the list. It should generate some good discussion.

thesauce said:

Generally it's more useful if you include some discussion with your rankings. I would like to know, for instance, why you placed Roswell Park and Moffitt CC (two premier institutions that I would've put toward the top) in the bottom 5th. Can you please elaborate?

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Abnormal Saline said:

You definitely should have a methodology for your ranking. Everyone who reads this list will have issues with the rankings. Like 'thesauce', I am also curious how Moffitt received such a low ranking, especially in consideration of Columbia's ranking in a tier above it. Columbia was recenly released from probationary status. And how did Louisville get above/in the same tier as MCW?

I would start by placing every program on probation at the bottom. [Only three such programs, but still...] There's no reason for a program that's on probation to be ranked above a program that's in good standing. Period.

I also don't think that one can create a list that has much validity without spending many years in the academic rad onc community. There are academic chairpersons who know nothing of many of the programs on this list. Nonethless, thanks for creating the list. It should generate some good discussion.

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agreed. Another example which struck me as odd was ranking the cleveland clinic program in the next to bottom tier.

The OP needs to have a methodology to the rankings, and perhaps like US news, maybe 2 ranking lists are required (aka. ranking the best "clinical" programs and ranking the best "research" programs). Most programs will give you good clinical training for private practice.

What may also be helpful is an "avoid if possible" list and perhaps a reason why such programs should be approached with caution when considering your rank list. Programs that are on probation (or that have serious issues that will put them on probation soon - major faculty leaving, drop in caseload, hospital probation etc.) could fall into this category.

thesauce said:

Generally it's more useful if you include some discussion with your rankings. I would like to know, for instance, why you placed Roswell Park and Moffitt CC (two premier institutions that I would've put toward the top) in the bottom 5th. Can you please elaborate?

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Actually, there are 41 programs in the last of the five categories created. Therefore, you could more accurately state, "why in the bottom half" for the aforementioned programs because there are ~80 Radiation Oncology training programs.

Otherwise, I think it's a great list. People will make comments pertaining to "Why isn't this program one level higher or lower", but all in all, pretty solid. I would agree with the comment about U of Louisville, as they were one of the programs that had to scramble this year.

CyberKnife19 said:

Actually, there are 41 programs in the last of the five categories created. Therefore, you could more accurately state, "why in the bottom half" for the aforementioned programs because there are ~80 Radiation Oncology training programs.

Otherwise, I think it's a great list. People will make comments pertaining to "Why isn't this program one level higher or lower", but all in all, pretty solid. I would agree with the comment about U of Louisville, as they were one of the programs that had to scramble this year.

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How different would a list ranking competitiveness (matching) in a decreasing order look?

2012mdc said:

How different would a list ranking competitiveness (matching) in a decreasing order look?

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Take this list (with a few adjustments) and multiply by desirability of location.

SimulD said:

I actually don't have a big problem with the list, and actually think it's quite prescient for a med student to have come up with it. If we are talking prestige + location, not sure it's too far off from what I would have come up with.

My recs:
1. - Combine excellent and very good.
Rationale: very hard to tell the difference between these two. I mean seriously - putting Emory and NYU in different categories doesn't make any damn sense.

2. With the elimination of a group, add a "caution/avoid" list for those that have a choice. Not for most of us. Ha - in fact, for my situation originally, those would probably be my first choice, haha. Wayne State, Louisville are the only that come to mind. Not having matched a person to me means nothing. It means those that made the match list are stupid, not that the residency/residents/education are poor. Just think about it for a little bit, this will make sense.

3. Move Florida, Southwestern, Vanderbilt, Fox Chase, Utah up:
Rationale - Florida, Vanderbilt are very good. SW is pretty good, with a chairman that was nothing but mean to me, but in a desirable location and the only one in the area. Utah is in an amazing location and very good. Fox Chase is an amazing cancer center in a reasonable city.

4. Move Kaiser, Georgetown, USF up - what other programs in these highly populated/highly desired regions are worth going to at this time? The rest of the programs in those regions (So Cal - UCI, COH, USC, UCLA; DC - Howard; Tampa/Clearwater - none) are suspect.

5. Henry Ford, Baylor, UVA, Buffalo - I don't have good rationales for these places. Three I've interviewed at and know are pretty good even though in cities I don't want to live in and one is known to be great (Buffalo) but also in a city that I wouldn't live there for love or money. I'd still move all of them out of the bottom category.

-S

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Why/how is SLC a great location? Skiing/snowboarding?

Why are USC and UCLA considered suspect?

Is Howard's program new? No mention of the program on ERAS, Freida, or Howard's website.

2012mdc said:

Is Howard's program new? No mention of the program on ERAS, Freida, or Howard's website.

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Howard was on probation a few years back and then shut down. I've heard talk of it being revived, but don't know much else in that regard.

I’d like to say I had a detailed methodology for the rankings, but really I just copied the list from the FRIEDA website and pasted them in the order I hear them talked about. Obviously I don’t have in depth knowledge of all 80+ programs, and I definitely overlooked some very strong programs. The point of ranking all programs was to generate discussion of the less talked about programs. I think it has been interesting and helpful already. I also want to point out that I don’t mean to offend anyone by ranking a program lower than it should be. If it is ranked too it’s only because I (a random, anonymous med student) haven’t heard as much about it. Also I don’t mean to imply any programs are bad. Pretty soon there will be a lot of us hoping for those spots. To address specific points:

1. Why are Moffit, Roswell Park, Cleveland Clinic and MCW ranked so low? I blew it. I will adjust the list accordingly
2. Why was Columbia ranked so high? Columbia was probably ranked too high based on its name (in medicine in general), location, and perceived improvements under Dr. Chao.
3. Should we put the programs recently on probation in a different category? This seems to be up for debate. Simul suggested that we put Baylor (another of the recent probation programs) up a category in to the grouping I had originally put Columbia. Consensus?
4. Should we create an avoid if possible category? This sounds like a good Idea but maybe someone with more in depth knowledge should create or addend that part of the list.
5. Combine Excellent and Very Good. Done
6. Move Florida, Southwestern, Vanderbilt, Fox Chase, Utah up. I initially had those programs in the higher category but changed them. I agree that Florida, UTSW and FCCC probably belong in the category above. Vanderbilt was ranked a little lower than it probably should have because their chair, Hallahan, left. Do most people think Vanderbilt and Utah should be moved?
7. Move USF, Georgetown, UVA, Henry Ford, and Buffalo up. Done
8. Should Baylor be moved up (or down)?
9. Move Kaiser up - what other programs in these highly populated/highly desired regions are worth going to at this time? The rest of the programs in those regions (So Cal - UCI, COH, USC, UCLA) are suspect. Several attending I spoke to didn’t have the most favorable impression about Kaiser. Maybe this was just a small sample and not representative. What do most people think about Kaiser? I’m not sure I would agree with calling UCLA suspect. They did have problems with faculty loss but their new chair (even though he is from private practice) seems to be doing good things there. He recently recruited Pat Kupelian (prostate), Chris King (prostate) and Dan Low (head of physics from Wash U). Plus the name and location must add a little bit.



Exceptional
Brigham and Women's Hospital/Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center Program
University of Texas M D Anderson Cancer Center Program

Outstanding
Stanford University Program
University of California (San Francisco) Program
Yale-New Haven Medical Center Program
University of Chicago/University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program
Johns Hopkins University Program
University of Michigan Program
William Beaumont Hospital Program
Washington University/B-JH/SLCH Consortium Program
Duke University Hospital Program
University of Pennsylvania Program
University of Wisconsin Program
University of Florida Program
Fox Chase Cancer Center Program
Vanderbilt University Medical Center Program
University of Texas Southwestern Medical School Program
University of Utah Program

Excellent
University of Maryland Program
Thomas Jefferson University Program
University of Alabama Medical Center Program
UCLA Medical Center Program
University of Colorado Denver Program
New York University School of Medicine Program
University of Rochester Program
University of North Carolina Hospitals Program
UPMC Medical Education Program
University of Washington Program
Wake Forest University School of Medicine Program
University of California (San Diego) Program
Emory University Program
College of Medicine Mayo Clinic (Rochester) Program
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School Program
Albert Einstein College of Medicine Program
Case Western Reserve University/University Hospitals Case Medical Center Program
Cleveland Clinic Foundation Program
Oregon Health & Science University Program
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio Program
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
National Capital Consortium Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program
Georgetown University Hospital Program
University of South Florida Program
Henry Ford Hospital Program
University at Buffalo Program
University of Virginia Program

Good
New York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus) Program
University of Louisville Program
Baylor College of Medicine Program
University of Arizona Program
City of Hope National Medical Center Program
Loma Linda University Program
University of Southern California/LAC+USC Medical Center Program
Kaiser Permanente Southern California (Los Angeles) Program
University of California (Irvine) Program
University of California (Davis) Health System Program
California Pacific Medical Center Program
College of Medicine Mayo Clinic (Jacksonville) Program
Jackson Memorial Hospital/Jackson Health System Program
Rush University Medical Center Program
Loyola University Program
Indiana University School of Medicine Program
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program
University of Kansas School of Medicine Program
University of Kentucky College of Medicine Program
Tufts Medical Center Program
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center Program
University of Minnesota Program
University of Mississippi Medical Center Program
University of Nebraska Medical Center College of Medicine Program
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program
New York Methodist Hospital Program
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens/Cornell University Medical College Program
SUNY Upstate Medical University Program
University Hospital/University of Cincinnati College of Medicine Program
Ohio State University Hospital Program
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center Program
Drexel University College of Medicine/Hahnemann University Hospital Program
Allegheny General Hospital-Western Pennsylvania Hospital Medical Education Consortium (AGH)
Medical University of South Carolina Program
University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals Program
Methodist Hospital (Houston) Program
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Program

I agree that UCLA is on the rise.

The new chair, Michael Steinberg, is the President-Elect of ASTRO, and has every intention of building his department into a clinical and academic powerhouse. Should be interesting to observe, given his high-flying background as a superstar private practice executive and clinician.

RO2010 said:

9. Move Kaiser up - what other programs in these highly populated/highly desired regions are worth going to at this time? The rest of the programs in those regions (So Cal - UCI, COH, USC, UCLA) are suspect. Several attending I spoke to didn’t have the most favorable impression about Kaiser. Maybe this was just a small sample and not representative. What do most people think about Kaiser? I’m not sure I would agree with calling UCLA suspect. They did have problems with faculty loss but their new chair (even though he is from private practice) seems to be doing good things there. He recently recruited Pat Kupelian (prostate), Chris King (prostate) and Dan Low (head of physics from Wash U). Plus the name and location must add a little bit.

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XRTboy said -2. Harvard Combined Program:
The combining of the JCRT and MGH residencies programs is a great thing for incoming residents. Whatever kinks exist should be worked out in the next few months as the first class of the combined program starts this July. Simply put there is no better place to be if one is certain that he/she is going into academics. They combined program has more big names than either MD Anderson or Sloan, and most of them are great mentors. Research and understanding the literature are stressed. Can earn MPH at Harvard School of Public Health during PGY-4 research year. On the downside, not that much IMRT (although MGH has protons), Harvard attitudes and politics, excommunication if one goes into private practice.

just a little fyi (not that it matters now) but back in 1986 i worked for the "JCRT" but at that time it consisted of the longwood area hospitals (before the BI merged with the deaconess). Norm Coleman and Jay Harris were the two chiefs and I regularly interacted with the residents and they were absolutely thrilled that they were chosen to complete their residencies in the boston area hospitals. So after reading your post XRT, i am realizing that its not just the longwood area hospitals that have these types of JCRT or other specialty group residencies that work in conjunction with other medical facilities. So here are my 2 questions for anyone who can enlighten me to what I believe is wrong. Living in the Boston area my entire life I thought the Longwood area hospitals were the best for treating cancer. apparently not because they weren't mentioned in anyone's replies...and 2. I have heard some really dissatisfied people who have been treated at MGH and while I am aware that I am the minority compared to you all, it would be nice if someone could let me know whether is is actually a good hospital overall. thanks for your help.

.

I thought this would be great time to update the rankings. My edits:

1. Alphabetized the first 3 categories. Sorry got lazy for the "Good" category.
2. Moved Albert Einstein (NY) program down a notch ("Good") based on my personal impression relative to some of the schools in the "Excellent" and "Good" categories.
3. Moved Columbia to "Excellent" based on improvements in the program made by the chair. All of the applicants I met that day were pleasantly surprised by this place.
4. Moved UTSW down a notch (to "Good") based on a grumblings by the residents and ambiguity of the chair concerning the vision for the next few years.
5. Kept Emory where it is, but does anyone else see this program moving up??

Exceptional
Harvard Radiation Oncology Program (HROP)
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center Program
University of Texas M D Anderson Cancer Center Program

Outstanding
Duke University Hospital Program
Fox Chase Cancer Center Program
Johns Hopkins University Program
Stanford University Program
University of Wisconsin Program
University of California (San Francisco) Program
University of Chicago/University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program
University of Florida Program
University of Michigan Program
University of Pennsylvania Program
University of Utah Program
Vanderbilt University Medical Center Program
Washington University/B-JH/SLCH Consortium Program
William Beaumont Hospital Program
Yale-New Haven Medical Center Program

Excellent
Case Western Reserve University/University Hospitals Case Medical Center Program
Cleveland Clinic Foundation Program
Emory University Program
Georgetown University Hospital Program
Henry Ford Hospital Program
Mayo Clinic (Rochester) Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program
National Capital Consortium Program
New York-Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia) Program
New York University School of Medicine Program
Oregon Health & Science University Program
Thomas Jefferson University Program
University of Alabama Medical Center Program
University at Buffalo Program
UCLA Medical Center Program
University of California (San Diego) Program
University of Colorado Denver Program
University of Maryland Program
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School Program
University of South Florida Program (Moffitt)
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio Program
University of Texas Southwestern Medical School Program
University of Virginia Program
University of Rochester Program
University of North Carolina Hospitals Program
UPMC Medical Education Program
University of Washington Program
Wake Forest University School of Medicine Program

Good
Albert Einstein College of Medicine Program
University of Louisville Program
Baylor College of Medicine Program
University of Arizona Program
City of Hope National Medical Center Program
Loma Linda University Program
University of Southern California/LAC+USC Medical Center Program
Kaiser Permanente Southern California (Los Angeles) Program
University of California (Irvine) Program
University of California (Davis) Health System Program
California Pacific Medical Center Program
College of Medicine Mayo Clinic (Jacksonville) Program
Jackson Memorial Hospital/Jackson Health System Program
Rush University Medical Center Program
Loyola University Program
Indiana University School of Medicine Program
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program
University of Kansas School of Medicine Program
University of Kentucky College of Medicine Program
Tufts Medical Center Program
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center Program
University of Minnesota Program
University of Mississippi Medical Center Program
University of Nebraska Medical Center College of Medicine Program
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program
New York Methodist Hospital Program
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens/Cornell University Medical College Program
SUNY Upstate Medical University Program
University Hospital/University of Cincinnati College of Medicine Program
Ohio State University Hospital Program
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center Program
Drexel University College of Medicine/Hahnemann University Hospital Program
Allegheny General Hospital-Western Pennsylvania Hospital Medical Education Consortium (AGH)
Medical University of South Carolina Program
University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals Program
Methodist Hospital (Houston) Program
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Program

IMO Emory is on the rise, but still belongs in the category it is currently in for now. I would move Buffalo, Henry Ford, Case, Alabama, down. These places are perfectly decent, but just don't belong in the same category as Emory, Northwestern, Mayo, etc. I mean Cleveland Clinic>>Case by almost any standard. I also think Columbia hasn't earned the bump up yet. I would probably put Vandy in the "excellent" group instead.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of these aggregate rankings. I miss the old #1 - #10 rankings. Also, there is a pretty wide quality gap between some programs in the Excellent category and less so in the Outstanding category.

Before I complete residency, I'll probably throw in my two cents with a classic top ten countdown.

Gfunk6 said:

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of these aggregate rankings. I miss the old #1 - #10 rankings. Also, there is a pretty wide quality gap between some programs in the Excellent category and less so in the Outstanding category.

Before I complete residency, I'll probably throw in my two cents with a classic top ten countdown.

Click to expand...

I find both helpful, but your point is well taken. Still, no program is ideal for all career paths. I think the Top Ten list would be different if looking at an academic path vs. a community medicine/private practice path.

Exceptional
Harvard Radiation Oncology Program (HROP)
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center Program
University of Texas M D Anderson Cancer Center Program

Outstanding
Duke University Hospital Program
Fox Chase Cancer Center Program
Johns Hopkins University Program
Stanford University Program
University of Wisconsin Program
University of California (San Francisco) Program
University of Chicago/University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program
University of Florida Program
University of Michigan Program
University of Pennsylvania Program
University of Utah Program
Vanderbilt University Medical Center Program
Washington University/B-JH/SLCH Consortium Program
William Beaumont Hospital Program
Yale-New Haven Medical Center Program

Excellent
Cleveland Clinic Foundation Program
Emory University Program
Georgetown University Hospital Program
Mayo Clinic (Rochester) Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program
National Capital Consortium Program
New York-Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia) Program
New York University School of Medicine Program
Oregon Health & Science University Program
Thomas Jefferson University Program
UCLA Medical Center Program
University of California (San Diego) Program
University of Colorado Denver Program
University of Maryland Program
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School Program
University of South Florida Program (Moffitt)
University of Texas Southwestern Medical School Program
University of Virginia Program
University of North Carolina Hospitals Program
UPMC Medical Education Program
University of Washington Program
Wake Forest University School of Medicine Program

Good
University of Rochester Program
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio Program
Henry Ford Hospital Program
Case Western Reserve University/University Hospitals Case Medical Center Program
Albert Einstein College of Medicine Program
University of Louisville Program
Baylor College of Medicine Program
University of Arizona Program
City of Hope National Medical Center Program
Loma Linda University Program
University of Southern California/LAC+USC Medical Center Program
Kaiser Permanente Southern California (Los Angeles) Program
University of California (Irvine) Program
University of California (Davis) Health System Program
University at Buffalo Program
California Pacific Medical Center Program
University of Alabama Medical Center Program
College of Medicine Mayo Clinic (Jacksonville) Program
Jackson Memorial Hospital/Jackson Health System Program
Rush University Medical Center Program
Loyola University Program
Indiana University School of Medicine Program
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program
University of Kansas School of Medicine Program
University of Kentucky College of Medicine Program
Tufts Medical Center Program
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center Program
University of Minnesota Program
University of Mississippi Medical Center Program
University of Nebraska Medical Center College of Medicine Program
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program
New York Methodist Hospital Program
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens/Cornell University Medical College Program
SUNY Upstate Medical University Program
University Hospital/University of Cincinnati College of Medicine Program
Ohio State University Hospital Program
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center Program
Drexel University College of Medicine/Hahnemann University Hospital Program
Allegheny General Hospital-Western Pennsylvania Hospital Medical Education Consortium (AGH)
Medical University of South Carolina Program
University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals Program
Methodist Hospital (Houston) Program
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Program

Time to contribute a little something back to SDN after months of good use! Before I get into this, I'd like to establish my ranking parameters. In (roughly) descending order of importance here are my criteria: perceived prestige/reputation, research opportunities, clinical training/didactics, "momentum forward" in terms of growth/reputation (vs. stagnation or descent into crappiness), location, ability to find desirable academic/PP jobs (based on speaking to faculty, residents, recent grads. Admittedly one of the more nebulous criteria), faculty, residents, and "training ambiance". As a caveat, I did NOT interview at all of the following programs. A lot of this is based on interviews, prior "impressions/rankings" found on SDN (not gonna lie, this made me aware of subtle differences between programs), and conversations with attendings, residents, and fellow applicants.

1. Harvard Combined - It's got everything you could want in a program: great reputation, amazing training/didactics, research opportunities out the wazoo, and stellar faculty and residents. Golden ticket to whatever job you want. And, oh yeah, Boston ain't too shabby either. Only downside? Huuge, which is what you make of it. Probably the most coveted spots in the country.

2. MSKCC - The best clinical training in a sweet location. Faculty are incredibly well-respected. Focus on research has grown under the leadership of Dr. Powell, but the downside is that basic science isn't as easily available or as "reputable" as it is at major academic centers. Best clinical training = hardest working residents, by far. Personally, being at a stand alone cancer center was a BIG negative for me, but it's hard to knock the program solely for that reason. I ranked this below programs lower on this list, though.

3. Stanford - Combine great reputation, training/didactics, stellar job opportunities, and location into one package and you have Stanford. Amazing basic science opportunities and a handful of big-time faculty. Downsides include cost of living, chairperson ambiguity, and only real major reputation in lymphoma (boring!). Stupid complaint, I know.

4. UCSF - Best location makes this probably the most desirable program after Harvard. Great reputation (esp in CNS, awesome!), and sweet co-residents. Also overflowing with basic science opportunities, although not necessarily a priority. Didactics and training environment (ahem, lack thereof) seem to be a VERY real issue and that's what kicks it down below Stanford. I think UCSF will remain as desirable as it is even though Hopkins and Penn will creep above it in the near future.

Ever so slight dropoff:

5. UPenn - Beautiful cancer center, protons online, GREAT training/didactics. The downsides of a mandatory intern year, only 9 months of research (that too in three 3 month blocks rendering the basic science opps of Penn a complete waste), and Philly push it below Stanford. Also, expansion means more work for residents, bottom-line. If some of these things are changed, and a few big-time faculty are recruited here, I could see Upenn cracking the top 3.

6. Johns Hopkins - Whoaa nelly. That thing about Hopkins making big moves? The truth...and you have to see it to believe it. Amazing facilities, great young mentorship (PD a recent MSKCC grad, basic scientist MD/PhD recruited from Stanford), basic science opps, phenomenal training, so-called "Hopkins effect," and esprit de corps (happy residents!) make this place more than just relevant, but a legitimate contender. Negatives include relative lack of bigwig faculty and...Baltimore. Seriously - it's Baltimore! I see this place competing with Stanford and Penn for the number 3 spot by the time the class of 2012 finishes training, but I doubt it'll be as desirable as Harvard/MSKCC just based on location.

7. MDACC - Whatttt?!! First, I will say that hands down MDACC has the most impressive faculty lineup in the country. Sweet facilities and every toy you can play with. If you are a graduating resident, this is the place to be as a junior attending if you want tons of research opportunities, a high salary/high standard of living, and mucho respect. But let me say as a residency training program, it's not all its built up to be. Clinical training and didactics were subpar compared to the other top-tier institutions (I did several away rotations, including one here). A few *very well respected* attendings I spoke with also felt that, pound for pound, other programs blow this one out of the water in terms of research productivity. Location is a huge negative, and I don't think it would be surprising to reveal that, in terms of overall resident desirability, MDACC is well below many (but not necessarily all) of the other programs listed above. That said, this place has a tremendous reputation and you can't go wrong here. Not trying to engender hate, just want to provide my honest opinion.

Moderate dropoff:

8. Yale - New cancer center is awesome, and the PD Lynn Wilson is a charmer. Great place for basic science and happiest residents on the trail probably due to having the chillest/easiest residency program in the country (they make no qualms about it). No great strengths for the program other than Dr. Glazer's basic science reputation and resident happiness, combined with iffy location put this at 8. Placed above Michigan due to recent big-gun cancer center recruits from MDACC.

9. Michigan - Haven for budding academics. GREAT didactics/training and basic science opportunities. Very well-respected program with some bigwig faculty. However, I got the sense that the people running this place are super conservative and super opinionated (maybe even squirrely; intuited from tag-team interview by Chairman/PD) but churn out well-trained residents. Got the sense that job opportunities in PP weren't the greatest or at least severely limited to the midwest. Ann Arbor is blisteringly cold but seems hip in its own way.

10. Wash U St. Louis- Didn't interview here based on location but I hear wonderful things. Seems to be competing with Michigan for top spot in the Midwest.

11. U Chicago - Great didactics bordering on malignant. Honestly, though, it didn't suit my personal learning style and I didn't see it as a necessary part of training. Curriculum is structured in a wonderful way: 1 year of research and ability to do away rotations! PD seemed a little weird (affect of a troubled genius?) and leadership seems like it'll be an issue as some of the old guard steps down. Location is plus or minus depending on your perspective. For me, it was a negative.

12. U Wisconsin - I hear its solid all around, but I'd consider downing a quart of gasoline over living in Madison, WI for 4 years. Didn't interview here.

13. Duke - Didn't interview here but hear great things. Malignancy a thing of the past, great research opportunities, great name.

14. UCLA - Climbing up fast, and Los Angeles makes for a phenomenal training location. PD was a little weird (old-school nerdy personality stereotype) but the chairman was awesome to talk to. Didactics a HUGE negative. The current resident class hasn't even had structured lectures yet. Overworked (6 new consults a day?) for now. I think this program will crack the top 10 in 5-10 years just based on the pace of its growth.

15. Vanderbilt - Didn't interview here, but solid reputation and basic science research. Some turmoil here I think? Seems to have lost a lot of clout recently due to departure of its chairman to WUSTL.

16. and below, not sure!

About me: Male, non-PhD with clinical and basic science background, from all around the country but prefer West coast > East coast >> Midwest. Matched at one of the above programs (tried to remove as much personal bias as possible!). Doesn't need to be said, but will say it anyways to future applicants: take all this with a grain of salt when making rank lists! Training ANYWHERE in the top 25 programs or so seemed remarkably similar clinically. Program "rank" seems to have more of an effect if you want to get a sweet academic job or a PP job in a highly desired location. I will say that things change quickly in rad onc and programs might move up or down these fabled "rankings threads" remarkably fast (ie Fox chase, vanderbilt) based on word-of-mouth. At the end of the day, places like the Harvards, Stanfords, Hopkins, Penns, SFs, have the overall hospital reputation to buoy any perceived weaknesses even though they might not be as good as they are reputed to be! But boy do patients love having Harvard trained docs!

Boy oh boy. I really don't want to do these rankings. Unfortunately, I guess I kinda, sorta promised I would do them and since med students LOVE rankings I am being constantly harassed to put up. I suppose I brought this on myself . . .

ANYWAY, a few disclaimers and random points:

1. My rankings are B.S. Total and unadulterated B.S. Treat them as such. Please don't blame me if you went to one of "Gfunk6's top 10" and it ruined your life. YMMV.
2. The main endpoint of my rankings is job placement of grads followed by (obviously highly subjectively) quality of life, quality of training (whatever that means), strength of faculty, availability of research, etc. Obviously, I did my residency at one program so my knowledge from other programs comes mainly from conversation with co-residents.
3. Please don't complain to me that your program is not ranked higher. My rankings are B.S.
4. Lest you think I am East or West coast centric (BTW, I am) let me say that I grew up on the East Coast, spent ~ one decade in the deep South, and have lived on the West Coast for 4 years.
5. These rankings are B.S.

Ok, here goes . . .

#1 Harvard
No real surprise here. With three sites, tons of attendings, and nearly every from of XRT technology you will be capable of doing anything Rad Onc related coming out of here. Perhaps equally important, the Harvard name is golden. This is one of the few programs which sends it graduates to every corner of the United States. A lot of this has to do with the fact that they graduate EIGHT people a year, but you will be able to find a job nearly wherever you'd like.

#2 MSKCC
Also, no big surprise. The volume here is a bit on the obscene side and many residents gripe about it. I think Simon Powell is a huge plus for Memorial and his strengths in basic research really complements Memorial's reputation as a clinical powerhouse. Grads (not surprisingly) tend to cluster around the NY tri-state area. The faculty here are just out of this world.

#3 UCSF
Surprising? Yes. Self-serving? Probably. However, I don't think you can argue with the end-outcomes. From my perspective, our job outcomes are second to none. We get all the top (available spots) each year in the ultra-competitive markets on the West coast (LA, San Diego, SF Bay Area, Portland, and Seattle). Also, quality of life here is unbeatable. Weather + culture + technology = good times. Also, with our recent adoption of the Holman Pathway, physician scientists are cultivated.

#4 Wash U
Crazy? Probably. Surprising? It shouldn't be. Look, I'll be the first to say that St. Louis is not my cup of tea. However, if you are from the Midwest it shouldn't be a problem and if you're not then if you tough it out for four years you will be set up for a great position. The department is very well run, is on the bleeding edge of technology (though not sure if Stillwater will ever get off the ground), and the training is excellent. I think Dennis Hallahan was an excellent choice for this department for the same reasons Powell was for MSKCC.

#5 MDACC
MDACC occupies a fairly unique position as a cancer megapolis, even more so than Harvard which can appear fragmented. Each subsite in MDACC is larger than 90% of Rad Onc departments which should tell you something. Houston is not my cup of tea, but it may rock your boat. I think MDACC tends to recruit outstanding residents to be sure and many of them are unique in their skills and talents outside of medicine, I believe. However, in my (uninformed) opinion, the job placement of their graduates is possibly not as great as the institution itself.

#6 Stanford
Palo Alto is a great place to live, in my opinion, probably even a hair nicer than SF. Also, their basic science facilities are kick-ass and several grads have become productive physician scientists in one of their numerous institutes. However from my (utterly uninformed) opinion, their training seems a bit too scut-heavy and their job outcomes (historically) are not quite as good as UCSF.

#7 U Penn
With the (not so new anymore) proton center, Penn has exploded in size and # faculty. While this is great for the folks at the top, it can create numerous problems for junior faculty and residents because warm bodies are needed to staff all of the new physical space. I've talked with Steve Hahn and found him to be a refreshingly frank and thoroughly honest man and this is the impression of the department I've come away with. No doubt, Penn's residents are top-notch but given the workload, I have (again, uninformed) concerns.

#8 U Michigan
Ted Lawrence is awesome. I think he is my favorite chairman in the entire country. Not only is he incredibly accomplished and knowledgeable, but he is down-to-earth, honest and very supportive of his junior faculty and residents. Ann Arbor is not really my cup of tea. I've heard from (unnamed, and probably inaccurate sources) that choosing not to do academics is severely frowned upon.

#9 Beaumont
Yeah, I think these guys have cracked the top 10. Don't agree? Tough. The only knock is that the Rad Onc department >>> the rest of the hospital so I think your colleagues may not be as awesome as other programs. However, the department is really a well-oiled engine of academics and residents are involved at all levels. Also, I've been thoroughly impressed with the level of knowledge of Beaumont residents. Job placements are also impressive for a smaller department.

#10 Hopkins
These guys were struggling in rankings for a number of years but I think they've finally reached the top of the hill. I've been extremely impressed with the junior faculty I've seen there and Ted DeWeese is similarly awesome. Also, similar to Harvard the Hopkins name is very well known even among the general public which is great help come job time. Also, kind of in contrast to Beaumont, your co-oncology departments are second to none.

Well, that's all folks. If your program didn't make it I'm really very, very sorry. Please don't take it personally, because these rankings are all B.S. Part of what makes rankings silly is that the "ranker" cannot possibly have reliable inside knowledge of EVERY top program. Therefore, there will always be unwarranted exclusions and inclusions.

Please don't hurt me . . .

Gfunk6 said:

Boy oh boy. I really don't want to do these rankings. Unfortunately, I guess I kinda, sorta promised I would do them and since med students LOVE rankings I am being constantly harassed to put up. I suppose I brought this on myself . . .

Click to expand...

Gfunk6, thank you for adding your thoughts. I've enjoyed seeing how this list has evolved over time and you've been very accurate in many of your comments.

I agree with you on the difficulty in ranking so many good programs but do the the value for prospective residents. On the other hand, I don't know whether this list applies fully to both academic and community medicine career tracks.

From my limited experience, at least one of the above programs has potential negatives and at least two or three additional programs not on this list that are top notch/better, if only looking at the community track. Because I do not believe my n=1 opinion is valid enough to elaborate, I'll leave it at that.

Could experienced folks like Gfunk6 post a list that endeavors to remove geography from the equation? Its obvioulsy important but it would be most helpful to those trying to learn comparative quality to consider these lists without that location bias.

On the other hand, maybe this list stands as is without deletion or addition even when geography is not a factor.....or perhaps its just gets rearranged a bit.

subatomicdoc said:

From my limited experience, at least one of the above programs has potential negatives and at least two or three additional programs not on this list that are top notch/better, if only looking at the community track. Because I do not believe my n=1 opinion is valid enough to elaborate, I'll leave it at that.

Click to expand...

No doubt this is true and it was something I was sensitive to. People are sometimes highly offended by rankings but I only have 10 slots so it's inevitable that everyone won't be happy. For what it's worth, I would also put Wisconsin, Chicago, Florida, and Yale as top notch programs off the top of my head.

doubleduty said:

Could experienced folks like Gfunk6 post a list that endeavors to remove geography from the equation?

Click to expand...

Others (see previous rankings in this thread) have "attempted" to do this. Not trying to offend, but what you're really asking is "can you use some other factor to re-arrange this list more to my liking and/or expectation?" Unforuntately, I can't and it would be silly to. We have our own biases and this is why ranking lists should be considered in aggregate. Despite bias there are certainly some programs which appear repeatedly.

Gfunk6 said:

No doubt this is true and it was something I was sensitive to. People are sometimes highly offended by rankings but I only have 10 slots so it's inevitable that everyone won't be happy. For what it's worth, I would also put Wisconsin, Chicago, Florida, and Yale as top notch programs off the top of my head.

Click to expand...

You clearly have been very sensitive to the issue, and I'm not offended in any way. If my musings came off that way, I apologize. From the standpoint of an attending who sees residents as future partners, I thought I'd offer another perspective.

subatomicdoc said:

You clearly have been very sensitive to the issue, and I'm not offended in any way. If my musings came off that way, I apologize.

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Definitely not!

Your opinions and perspective are extremely valuable to this forum and we really appreciate your participation. I guess we're just two sensitive guys trying not to offend.

Gfunk6 said:

Definitely not!

Your opinions and perspective are extremely valuable to this forum and we really appreciate your participation. I guess we're just two sensitive guys trying not to offend.

Click to expand...

Oh thank goodness. Group hug?

subatomicdoc said:

Oh thank goodness. Group hug?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZvarRe-XVQ

I definitely appreciate all of your comments, and I'm glad that you give us some sense of the rankings (even if they are all BS, as you make clear). As much as the specific numbering doesn't matter, it's nice to have some sense of the range that each program is in and get many people's perspectives.

You were right, GFunk. Those rankings are total BS!

All joking aside, thank you for taking the time to post these rankings. They are very interesting to read and I hope they stimulate others to continue to add to this thread. Most of us know better than to take them as gospel, but for an uninformed medical student, they sure are fun to read and think about as another application season approaches.

I've never felt that I could accurately contribute to this thead if for no other reason than I didn't get interviews at more than a couple of the "standard" top programs. My list would have to be a top 10 for the average applicant. In the end though, for location considerations (which are unique to me), I matched at my top choice that others would have put farther down their list. I couldn't be happier with the outcome as there's something special about loving the location and program that you're going to spend the next 4 years. Only time will tell if it hurts me in the job hunt.

thesauce said:

I've never felt that I could accurately contribute to this thead if for no other reason than I didn't get interviews at more than a couple of the "standard" top programs. My list would have to be a top 10 for the average applicant.

Click to expand...

While this may be a reason to not contribute a top 10 list, I don't think this disqualifies you from contributing to this thread. In particular, since most of the bell curve (and most applicants) are in the middle of the bell curve, it would be particularly helpful to have your advice about what the top 10 for the average applicant is. Or at least, what you think about how the different programs in that range stack up to each other (strength/weaknesses, relative benefits of one program over another).

Med students are terrible gossips, and they spread such misinformation. Especially on the interview trail. ANYthing has to be better than that!!!

#1 Harvard
#2 MSKCC
#3 UCSF
#4 Wash U
#5 MDACC
#6 Stanford
#7 U Penn
#8 U Michigan
#9 Beaumont
#10 Hopkins

I agree with Harvard and MSKCC at the top. But MDACC below UCSF and Wash U? Really?!! I don't think Beaumont belongs on this top ten list-- but I certainly would have put Yale in there.

SnickersRad said:

#1 Harvard
#2 MSKCC
#3 UCSF
#4 Wash U
#5 MDACC
#6 Stanford
#7 U Penn
#8 U Michigan
#9 Beaumont
#10 Hopkins

I agree with Harvard and MSKCC at the top. But MDACC below UCSF and Wash U? Really?!! I don't think Beaumont belongs on this top ten list-- but I certainly would have put Yale in there.

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I would have to agree with SnickersRad here. My impression is that Yale is definitely a top 10 program- great faculty, new facility, happy and accomplished residents and many of them went onto faculty positions at well known departments such as MDA and Duke.

SnickersRad said:

I agree with Harvard and MSKCC at the top. But MDACC below UCSF and Wash U? Really?!! I don't think Beaumont belongs on this top ten list-- but I certainly would have put Yale in there.

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nitroprusside said:

I would have to agree with SnickersRad here. My impression is that Yale is definitely a top 10 program- great faculty, new facility, happy and accomplished residents and many of them went onto faculty positions at well known departments such as MDA and Duke.

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Fair enough. Though, if you two would also toss in your rankings it would be helpful.

Interestingly, I think this thread has kind of become "dogma" among medical students in that if certain programs are not included in a certain relative order, it is considered heresy. If you'll notice, the few residents who contributed to this thread posted rankings that are quite different from medical students. There is a reason for this, in that your perspective matures five years after your undegraduate medical education.

I certainly don't mean to imply that there are any "right" or "wrong" rankings (as I've pointed out repeatedly, my rankings are B.S.) but I ranked programs based on important factors to me and I stand by them.

What are everyones thoughts on Fox Chase? Seems like this place is falling apart with Freedman leaving as well. Is it worth rotating there?

I would read the wirting on the wall...from what I hear, in Philadelphia you either want to be at Penn or Jefferson. Penn obviously has 'name + protons;' Jefferson is historically a great program with strong ties to RTOG, and Jefferson network ('Jefferson Family') which should be helpful for getting good jobs. Penn residents obviously dont have trouble getting excellent jobs too..

On the flip side, by the time you interview, match and start a residency..ANY program could be completely different-- Fox Chase is proof of a program totally changing within 2 years!

Based on recent experience and the trail. Factors include teaching breadth, quality of teaching, resident experience/QOL, faculty, facilities, research opportunities, protected time for research or electives, NIH funding, general training experience of residents, job placement success. Represents a mild departure from the long standing usual, recapitulated list with slight bias toward research opportunity/support.

1)Harvard
2)MDACC
2)MSK
4)Penn
5)Yale
6)Wash U.
7)UCSF
8)Wisconsin
9)Michigan
10)Stanford
10)Hopkins
10)Chicago

NHD said:

Based on recent experience and the trail. Factors include teaching breadth, quality of teaching, resident experience/QOL, faculty, facilities, research opportunities, protected time for research or electives, NIH funding, general training experience of residents, job placement success. Represents a mild departure from the long standing usual, recapitulated list with slight bias toward research opportunity/support.

1)Harvard
2)MDACC
2)MSK
4)Penn
5)Yale
6)Wash U.
7)UCSF
8)Wisconsin
9)Michigan
10)Stanford
10)Hopkins
10)Chicago

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-----------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see these lists are becoming more accurate. Finishing up at a top tier radonc program and spent a good amount of time on the interview trail a few years back visiting most of the big programs. Been through a lot of match cycles with med students coming through our place, and spent a decent amount of time in the lab attempting to understand why photons kill tumors.

What have I learned about how to rate a radonc residency program? It comes down to only a few criteria:

1. Program director(s) and Chairs who are committed to their residents' training.
2. Reasonable level of patient volume for exposure to cases.
3. Protection of time to read and learn radonc/physics/radbio (each one of these subjects is complicated but fascinating, and requires a substantial amount of effort to comprehend).
4. Strong research opportunities (basic or clinical research: make no mistake, the low hanging fruit in radonc research has been picked. It is now time to delve deeper, and thus solid research training is needed to survive in this field now; much like the medoncs do now).

Things that should be de-emphasized, and seem to have confused previous list posters (in my opinion):

1. Location (apart from family reasons, the top priority is getting good training, and you can make the best of most places in the US, with a few exceptions)
2. Historical relevance (this is great for the attendings/dinosaurs at these places, but it does little to help a resident learn and launch their career)
3. "Brand name" (while there often is a correlation between brand name and radonc program quality, it is not always true)
4. Technology (as long as a program treats with the standard of care, which nowadays includes IMRT for many sites; it really does not matter whether they also have protons, carbon or argon ions; you just need to really understand photons and electrons, and you can learn about charged particles later).

With that in mind, my top 10 programs are listed below using these criteria (with a few clarifications).

1. MDACC: Residents get ample time to study and learn, volume is sufficient, "making cancer history", not much more needs to be said; this place is hands down the best in my opinion.
2. MSKCC: Very large patient volume, resident runs most services (which is a good and bad thing from what I hear), Chair is really trying to develop a sorely needed research component to the program.
3. Harvard: Large program, great attendings, good volume (not much more needs to be said, it is a solid place). The undergrad is #1 in the country, but the brand name does not always apply to the whole campus as described earlier (nor does historical significance), thus it does not surpass #1 and #2.
4. Yale: Phenomenally committed and truly academic program director, along with a Chair who cares about the residents and prioritizes research. Yale basic science research is top notch (cancer research will grow with the new cancer center). Also, there are a number of recently recruited young attendings with academic momentum worth latching onto. It confuses me when people leave this out of the top 5.
5. Penn: Program director is awesome, and as with #4 they have recruited great young talent. Protons are good, but should not be in the match equation.
6. Michigan: There are basically a core group of hardcore researchers (clinical>basic) which make this place great for those interested in an academic career.
7)Wisconsin.
8)Wash U.
9)UCSF: Will California stay afloat financially, and thus can it continue to fund its public university system?
10) Stanford:Stanford did great things in the 20th century in terms of radiation, and thus should always be in the top ten.