PBL? goods and bads?

[dentalmon]

i was wondering if anyone can answer this................

how many dental school in U.s are PBL based?.. i recently been to USC for an interview and experienced the PBL session... it wasnt exactly my cup of tea... i just want to see if what you guys think of the PBL ..?.. good and bad?..

[vlct0ria]

At my Nova interview, Dr. Lippman told us that Indiana, Harvard, Columbia, USC, Case and a few others I can't remember were focused (not necessarily entirely) on PBL...I haven't been to any interviews yet for any of the PBL schools, so I don't know enough about it to decide whether I like it. But based off what I know, I prefer having a set schedule of exams, deadlines, and goals to meet, which PBL doesn't necessarily have.

[yuppers]

Originally Posted by vlct0ria

At my Nova interview, Dr. Lippman told us that Indiana, Harvard, Columbia, USC, Case and a few others I can't remember were focused (not necessarily entirely) on PBL...I haven't been to any interviews yet for any of the PBL schools, so I don't know enough about it to decide whether I like it. But based off what I know, I prefer having a set schedule of exams, deadlines, and goals to meet, which PBL doesn't necessarily have.

Yeah, Dr. Lippman mentioned that at my interview too.
I had an interview at Case.... multiple students there said you basically get a case, discuss it, divide up things to research, come back the next time, discuss your findings, and solve the case. The students really liked it.
For me, I am planning to go to DS to learn as much as I can from experts in the field so their tradition lectures, books, and powerpoints to cram it into my head seems like it will work especially when it comes time for the NBDEs. No time wasted in discussion.
However, I was think PBL would be helpful to remember things in the long run and could be more practical when you get in the clinical setting.

[wizardsradio]

Originally Posted by yuppers

For me, I am planning to go to DS to learn as much as I can from experts in the field so their tradition lectures, books, and powerpoints to cram it into my head seems like it will work especially when it comes time for the NBDEs. No time wasted in discussion.
However, I was think PBL would be helpful to remember things in the long run and could be more practical when you get in the clinical setting.

I heard from a student interviewer that some NBDE questions are more situational and that having some pbl helps analyze these types of questions more efficiently... Has anyone else heard about this?

[yuppers]

Originally Posted by wizardsradio

I heard from a student interviewer that some NBDE questions are more situational and that having some pbl helps analyze these types of questions more efficiently... Has anyone else heard about this?

It would make sense for part 2.

[skifastrokclimb]

I probably should use the search function, but what is PBL?

[Tini]

Originally Posted by skifastrokclimb

I probably should use the search function, but what is PBL?

Problem based learning...its where you dont have ordinary lectures, but like previously posted, are given a problem or case, and learn theories through solving the problem. You aren't told the information, you figure it out for yourself

[Ryltar]

I think that PBL would work the best for the brightest students, such as Harvard students. For most of us dental school applicants who are well above average intelligence, but not quite geniuses, I think PBL would slow down the learning process. If you give a student a problem that is above their head, then there's going to be a lot of time wasted trying to solve it.

[justwu86]

If you give a student a problem that is above their head, then there's going to be a lot of time wasted trying to solve it.

But thats how you learn! Personally I learn more from active processes and problem solving then taking notes and memorizing a bunch of facts. Thats JUST me, everybody is different. Though it is important to point out that you really should know how to apply the information you have learned, otherwise its useless(besides of standardized tests...).

[bennijai]

I have a fairly positive view of PBL after attending USC's interview. It seems that you won't be stuck in class all day which leaves you time to study and even dedicate some time into extracurricular activities such as research, community outreach programs, or assisting. PBL will probably require more discipline to stay on top of your work, but which dental program doesn't require that?

PBL allows active learning and it can be more effective than just lectures. It isn't suited for everyone so you should definitely look into it before attending a school with a PBL curriculum. USC is also utilizing a "hybrid" curriculum (lecture and PBL) next year which should strengthen their program. I also heard they may remodel their clinics...

[KitKat09]

Originally Posted by Ryltar

I think that PBL would work the best for the brightest students, such as Harvard students. For most of us dental school applicants who are well above average intelligence, but not quite geniuses, I think PBL would slow down the learning process. If you give a student a problem that is above their head, then there's going to be a lot of time wasted trying to solve it.

it is not a blind process- they give you a problem but they also give you keys, where to go and what to look for so there is some guidance in the process, you are not totally alone trying to solve world problems....

[Ryltar]

Originally Posted by KitKat09

it is not a blind process- they give you a problem but they also give you keys, where to go and what to look for so there is some guidance in the process, you are not totally alone trying to solve world problems....

True. PBL can work if you have good professors. However, I wonder how it would work for the mediocore professors, such as those tenured at the dental school for research purposes who care little about teaching. Every dental school has some fantastic professors, a lot of OK professors, and some bad professors it seems.

Personally, if I was handed a bad or OK professor I would much rather be taught by lectures than PBL.

[lphiewok]

Originally Posted by Ryltar

True. PBL can work if you have good professors. However, I wonder how it would work for the mediocore professors, such as those tenured at the dental school for research purposes who care little about teaching. Every dental school has some fantastic professors, a lot of OK professors, and some bad professors it seems.

Personally, if I was handed a bad or OK professor I would much rather be taught by lectures than PBL.

i agree. i hope when USC chooses their faculty they seriously consider how good they will be with teaching PBL just like how they evaluate dental school applicants on how well they will fit with PBL.

also, bad professors in traditional lectures = also no good
if my school records lectures i'll probably only go during exam days
(except i heard from USC student during my interview that if you divide the tuition to days of school, it comes out to be $900 / one day. I would not skip classes if im paying $900 a day...)

[bennijai]

Speaking of poor professors, I can't professors that just read off slides.

[tncekm]

For medical school (I'm sure it's similar in dental):

- Good: exchange ideas, think of the lecture topics at a much broader, more relevant level.

- Bad: way too time consuming. There is very little bang for your buck, and time is short in med/dental/etc school. I think we can do without it b/c people who need to group learning to get by can easily form groups to do so.

[c4e]

Originally Posted by yuppers

Yeah, Dr. Lippman mentioned that at my interview too.
I had an interview at Case.... multiple students there said you basically get a case, discuss it, divide up things to research, come back the next time, discuss your findings, and solve the case. The students really liked it.
For me, I am planning to go to DS to learn as much as I can from experts in the field so their tradition lectures, books, and powerpoints to cram it into my head seems like it will work especially when it comes time for the NBDEs. No time wasted in discussion.
However, I was think PBL would be helpful to remember things in the long run and could be more practical when you get in the clinical setting.

Case isn't strictly PBL. It has a hybrid PBL/lecture program. You also get traditional lectures with the appropriate experts. And there is usually a considerable amount of overlap of material between the two formats. In addition, not all classes have PBL components to them (ex. dental anatomy, preventitive perio... just the basic medical science classes)

The serious downside is that you don't know how much depth you need to go in order to consider the learning objective answered satisfactorily. Example: what is hypertrophic cardiomyopathy? You could answer the basic description of what the heart looks like with the condition. Or you can do a 9 page writeup with citations from review articles from PubMed. But some objectives could be more straightfoward: what is the ADA's recommendations on prophylactic antibiotics for patients who have histories of heart disease or defects (including hypertropic cardiomyopathy)? But the simultaneous upside is how much you want to learn, and the PBL method is pretty flexible in that regard. You also get to exercise the [clinical] critical thinking process that lecture doesn't usually afford.

[cjb04]

Midwestern doesn't use PBL, but we have case studies all 4 years that coincide with our basic sciences lecture material. This is only my first term, but I really like them because they allow us to Tx plan for a patient that has a common infection/genetic disorder commonly seen in practice. So far, we've had a diabetic, blood clotting disorder (factor 5 leiden deficient), metabolic syndrome, HIV, and skin cancer as the topics. We're broken into groups of 5 or 6 and we split up the learning objectives. We're responsible for a 20 minute powerpoint presentation that answers the learning objectives as well as the needs of the patient. We are also quizzed on the learning objectives as well as any assigned journal articles related to the topic. I think this format is advantageous because it provides us with a PBL-like experience without us having to rely upon it as our primary method of learning. We also start applying practical concepts learned in lecture to situations we may actually see out in private practice.

[sleepinxlionhar]

I'm just afraid that PBL won't be enough to prepare us for the first round of boards, which is just sciences as opposed to going to traditional lecture based teaching method. On the other hand, I am not looking forward to 30+ hours of class a week on a traditional lecture basis..so

[Kelly421]

Another positive that no one has mentioned is that you get to know your professors. Definitely a positive for recommendations if you want to specialize or do the general dentistry internship.

By now, I have a good grasp on how I learn best. For me, the best program would be primarily lecture based, but still have some case-based learning. I think learning through example cases can make it more interesting.

[Ryltar]

I loved developmental biology in college, which I think for most universities, like my school, is PBL structured. The nice thing about PBL in the classroom is that it forces active learning. However, you need lecture format to support it with the extra facts in between.

[PDizzle]

IMO..PBL blows. But that's just me. I know lots who like it.

I just don't want to be taught by other students. How do I know they know what they are talking about? The top students don't take what others say as fact and look it up anyway. So why not just be taught by instructors who are experts in the material?

A PBL session once a week would be fine as long as its more in your third/fourth year and clinically based, but to have the entire medical science based information in PBL is nutz!

[huk1985]

I am D1 at case, and it's not too bad at all. I gotta say most of the time it feels like waste of time, because my group talks about all kinds of stupid stuff. But all in all, it's better than straight lecture, because I just can't handle 4~6 hours of straight lectures. How it works in Case, at least what I think, is it supplements the lectures rather than being whole another thing, so it's not too bad... If you got any specific questions you can ask me tho..

[yuppers]

Originally Posted by huk1985

I am D1 at case, and it's not too bad at all. I gotta say most of the time it feels like waste of time, because my group talks about all kinds of stupid stuff. But all in all, it's better than straight lecture, because I just can't handle 4~6 hours of straight lectures. How it works in Case, at least what I think, is it supplements the lectures rather than being whole another thing, so it's not too bad... If you got any specific questions you can ask me tho..

The things I bolded make no sense to me. If it is a waste of time then how is it "not bad" or "better than straight lecture".
I thinking that the PBL courses might make preparing for the NBDE part 1 much tougher since all that time could be used to cram more info the students heads.

[xhamburgersamx]

Originally Posted by PDizzle

IMO..PBL blows. But that's just me. I know lots who like it.

I just don't want to be taught by other students. How do I know they know what they are talking about? The top students don't take what others say as fact and look it up anyway. So why not just be taught by instructors who are experts in the material?

A PBL session once a week would be fine as long as its more in your third/fourth year and clinically based, but to have the entire medical science based information in PBL is nutz!

lol top students... big ego, no respect for "low students"

As if there are really lower students at UCSF..sigh unless u're one of them!!!!!!!

[a1pha]

Originally Posted by yuppers

The things I bolded make no sense to me. If it is a waste of time then how is it "not bad" or "better than straight lecture".
I thinking that the PBL courses might make preparing for the NBDE part 1 much tougher since all that time could be used to cram more info the students heads.

A PBL/lecture hybrid system has been shown to increase board scores and other competency exams. I'm assuming this is why some schools have chosen to implement it. Obviously, it would depend on the school and how they actually set up their PBL sessions, and I'm not sure about a program like USC where (at least in the past) it was 100% PBL.

[huk1985]

Originally Posted by yuppers

The things I bolded make no sense to me. If it is a waste of time then how is it "not bad" or "better than straight lecture".
I thinking that the PBL courses might make preparing for the NBDE part 1 much tougher since all that time could be used to cram more info the students heads.

As I understand it, NBDE part 1 doesn't cover that much material (still really really enourmous amount of material), but what a lot of schools especially ones w/o PBL does is that they go way overboard, teaching students extra materials that's not going to be on the board. PBL/lecture hybrid still teaches everything necessary for boards and still goes beyond, but not as much. What I said about it being not bad is that it's kind of a break from a straight lecture and although you don't learn as much, you can focus on stuff you'd like to focus, because stuff you learn during PBL is not going to be on board anyways...

[PDizzle]

Originally Posted by xhamburgersamx

lol top students... big ego, no respect for "low students"

As if there are really lower students at UCSF..sigh unless u're one of them!!!!!!!

I would say @ UCSF I'm a "Medium Student"....and I still don't want to learn from other students...even "Top Students".

Ask anyone who got a great NBDE1 score...they teach themselves with review books/decks/text books/old exams. Your score means how bad you wanted it and how much you sacrificed for it.

Even traditional lecture, half the class is asleep or Facebook'n it. The material isn't complex,..it's just a ton of it.

3rd and 4th year is different. That's clinical instruction by faculty with decades of experience that will make you a better dentist. Better listen to that stuff!