Pros and Cons of your DO School

[DocHomer]

Originally Posted by fantasticplanet

can anybody please post a review of UMDNJ? i haven't seen one yet and i'm really interested in the school.

Go back a few pages. There is one by EMT2ER and one other person in his/her 4th year.

[Annexin5]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

When is that NSU review coming up??? I think were all excited to read it!!

agreed...i just got in and that December 14th deadline is getting closer and closer!

i'd love to hear about the quality of the rotations - i.e. which sites are great and which sites not so much. I've done a lot of reading on SDN, and it seems like match lists are not the ideal way to gauge the quality of a school (if you're interested in a competitive MD residency), so i'm trying my best to get an idea of the quality of rotations at NSU.

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by Annexin5

agreed...i just got in and that December 14th deadline is getting closer and closer!

i'd love to hear about the quality of the rotations - i.e. which sites are great and which sites not so much. I've done a lot of reading on SDN, and it seems like match lists are not the ideal way to gauge the quality of a school (if you're interested in a competitive MD residency), so i'm trying my best to get an idea of the quality of rotations at NSU.

From what I can gather, the rotations at NSU are very, very solid. It's not a school will you will have to worry about being bused around to different states or anything like that (unless you want to go to Georgia) it seems like they have enough tracks so that the lottery system works out okay for everyone. My biggest question about NSU is the rural med rotation during 4th year. It concerns me a little because it seems like it could come at a crucial time for audition rotations. I was also wondering about the university only allowing two audition rotations in the same subject. I'm not sure if this is standard at most DO schools or what. I actually had questions like this for just about every school I interviewed and and I think I'm gonna PM some 3/4th years before that Dec 14th DO deadline!!

[TeamZissou]

FYI the rural rotation at NSU can also be done in an underserved area. One student I talked to did theirs at Cook County.

As far as electives it varies...
AZCOM and CCOM allow 8 weeks of away electives in the same specialty with a total of 24 elective weeks (I think its 24). The thing to note with this is that it does not count any "required" rotations you do. Thus if I wanted to do EM since we have a required EM rotation our 4th year I could end up doing 12 weeks of EM fourth year with 8 of those weeks away. 8 weeks is usually all the away time you will need for most specialties, however ones such as ortho where you want to rotate through as many programs as possible it would be useful to have more away electives.

Western allows 12 elective weeks in the same rotation 4th year.

DMU I've heard is nearly unlimited electives in the same rotation.

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by TeamZissou

FYI the rural rotation at NSU can also be done in an underserved area. One student I talked to did theirs at Cook County.

As far as electives it varies...
AZCOM and CCOM allow 8 weeks of away electives in the same specialty with a total of 24 elective weeks (I think its 24). The thing to note with this is that it does not count any "required" rotations you do. Thus if I wanted to do EM since we have a required EM rotation our 4th year I could end up doing 12 weeks of EM fourth year with 8 of those weeks away. 8 weeks is usually all the away time you will need for most specialties, however ones such as ortho where you want to rotate through as many programs as possible it would be useful to have more away electives.

Western allows 12 elective weeks in the same rotation 4th year.

DMU I've heard is nearly unlimited electives in the same rotation.

How long does an audition rotation usually last at a program you are rotating with? IE when you go to an away rotation that you are interested in for residency, how long are you usually there for??

[bth7]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

How long does an audition rotation usually last at a program you are rotating with? IE when you go to an away rotation that you are interested in for residency, how long are you usually there for??

4 weeks.

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by bth7

4 weeks.

Thank you.

[TeamZissou]

Check out some of the different hospitals. Some rotations can be 2 weeks but it is often dependent on the specialty and the policy of the hospital.

[Annexin5]

Thanks for all the info!

This is going to sound pretty dumb, but is the NSU 4-week audition rotation per specialty or an overall only 4-weeks to audition?

I'm thinking I wanna go into general surgery, but who knows what I'll want to do 2 years from now...

How much away/elective/residency-related rotation time would be sufficient for the uber-competitive residencies? I ask because I read (can't seem to remember where) the outline of the rotation requirements at NSU and they require something like 2 months of rural with one month away? But, on the tour the students said that if you can demonstrate that a heavy metropolitan area has a large amount of patients not being attended, you can do your away rural rotation at that site provided there's a doc there to sign off.

In any case, 3 months rural and 1 or 2 months (can't remember) family med - that is a lot of time to spend rotating in specialties I'm sure I don't want to go into. Of course, NSU makes a point to let us know that they are focused on these aspects of medicine so it's no big surprise either.

[bth7]

Originally Posted by Annexin5

Thanks for all the info!

This is going to sound pretty dumb, but is the NSU 4-week audition rotation per specialty or an overall only 4-weeks to audition?

I'm thinking I wanna go into general surgery, but who knows what I'll want to do 2 years from now...

How much away/elective/residency-related rotation time would be sufficient for the uber-competitive residencies? I ask because I read (can't seem to remember where) the outline of the rotation requirements at NSU and they require something like 2 months of rural with one month away? But, on the tour the students said that if you can demonstrate that a heavy metropolitan area has a large amount of patients not being attended, you can do your away rural rotation at that site provided there's a doc there to sign off.

In any case, 3 months rural and 1 or 2 months (can't remember) family med - that is a lot of time to spend rotating in specialties I'm sure I don't want to go into. Of course, NSU makes a point to let us know that they are focused on these aspects of medicine so it's no big surprise either.

"Away rotations" are not the key ingredient to competitive specialty matching. Residency programs do not expect you to have done a rotation at their site to get accepted. Does it help? Maybe. But not always.

The vast majority of people (even in competitive fields) match at places where they did NOT do an audition rotation.

You're going to be applying to 10-30 programs. There's no possible way you will have done audition rotations at most of them. At most maybe you'll have rotated at 2 or 3 of them.

Don't stress about it. You have plenty of time to figure out your field of interest. There's enough time 3rd and 4th year to explore fields.

bth

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by bth7

"Away rotations" are not the key ingredient to competitive specialty matching. Residency programs do not expect you to have done a rotation at their site to get accepted. Does it help? Maybe. But not always.

The vast majority of people (even in competitive fields) match at places where they did NOT do an audition rotation.

You're going to be applying to 10-30 programs. There's no possible way you will have done audition rotations at most of them. At most maybe you'll have rotated at 2 or 3 of them.

Don't stress about it. You have plenty of time to figure out your field of interest. There's enough time 3rd and 4th year to explore fields.

bth

I've heard 100% the exact opposite for DO residencies. Meaning that it is one of the most important factors???

[Bacchus]

I've heard the opposite too, especially if you want to match ACGME. You can't rotate everywhere, but your top programs you should try to.

[bth7]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

I've heard the opposite too, especially if you want to match ACGME. You can't rotate everywhere, but your top programs you should try to.

Before I went through the match, I also believed the EXACT opposite. That audition rotations were the "key" to getting competitive.

But then I took a look at who was matching where. There was no consistent pattern in people matching into competitive fields at places they'd done audition rotations at. It helped some people, it hurt others.

I think people don't realize how rigorous the interview process is, I didn't. After a day at these places when you are interviewing, you have pretty good feel for the place, how the residents feel about the program, and they get a good feel for you. It's usually a fairly intense day.

I worked very hard to set up audition rotations at top programs that I wanted to match into. Ironically, I fell in love with a program that I did NOT rotate through, but had a really great interview experience at.

That's where I wound up matching.

Just do the math. You're going to (or you SHOULD be going to) apply to at least 10, if not 20 programs.

You should have at least 5 that you REALLY like on that list. And 5 more that you would be happy with.

There's just no way you're going to do an audition rotation at 10 places. It's not possible. Program directors don't expect it.

I am NOT saying its a bad idea. I got my best letter of rec from one of my audition rotations. I even got my preceptor from an audition rotation to call the PD of the program that I most wanted to say to the PD "hey, we worked with this guy for a month, he was great, you want him."

The point is, I think its really important to do several (2-3) audition rotations IN the specialty of your choice AT programs you are interested in. But I don't think you should have the expectation that those are the places you'll wind up matching, or even want to be matching.

The residency interview process is MUCHO DIFFERENTE from the med school interview process. You really get the feeling that you are a sought after commodity. You are a US med school grad. They are going to be working side-by-side with you for 4 years (or more). They want good people. And they want people who are going to be happy at that program. They really get to know you in the course of the interview. And vice versa.

The real key, in my opinion, is getting the interview. The key to getting the interview is letting the program know you want to go there. PD's get lots of applications. They don't want to sort through the pile. Everyone has great scores, great LoRs, etc. But a phone call or a personal letter from you saying "Hey, I'm really interested in X program because I heard Y and I think I be a great fit because of Z" really drives home the message that you know about the program, want to be a part of their team, took the time to learn about what they are trying to do at the program, etc.

Call. Ask. Write. Make it personal. Don't be passive and just click boxes off on ERAS. Be specific. Ask them what they are looking for. TALK TO THE RESIDENTS. Don't be shy. Be proactive. Definitely don't be OCD and annoying and insistent, but put yourself out there.

Anyway, this was MY experience (n=1), others may be different. I hope this makes sense, and is helpful.

bth

Last but not least - If the program has never accepted a DO, don't kid yourself that an audition rotation will help you "overcome the anti-DO barrier". I had a PD director flat out say to me "we really like you, you're gonna make a great resident. But we have a policy: we don't take DO students. That's just the way it is." And they never have.

Also, full disclosure. My experience is 100% ACGME programs. I did not, would not, would not ever apply to an AOA accredited residency program. (Unless I wanted optho, derm, ENT, or Rads.) I just would never have done it. I would have rather walked away from medicine altogether. I know that's super-extreme, but that's the way I feel about the AOA.

[AMEHigh]

Originally Posted by bth7

Also, full disclosure. My experience is 100% ACGME programs. I did not, would not, would not ever apply to an AOA accredited residency program. (Unless I wanted optho, derm, ENT, or Rads.) I just would never have done it. I would have rather walked away from medicine altogether. I know that's super-extreme, but that's the way I feel about the AOA.

I'm justly a lowly first year, so can you explain why?

[bth7]

Originally Posted by AMEHigh

I'm justly a lowly first year, so can you explain why?

From the Intro section of "Osteopathic medicine in the United States" on Wikipedia:

Studies have repeatedly shown that many recent osteopathic medical graduates are either disinterested in or reluctant to embrace an identity distinct from their MD counterparts.[16] The rapid expansion in the number and size of schools has raised questions as to the quality of education at some osteopathic medical schools. Leaders within the osteopathic community have referred to the present situation as a crisis.[12][13]"

Reading the references for this section tells the story better than I could.

Here's 2 of them:

Terry RR (01 Aug 2003). "Dually accredited family practice residencies: wave of the future". J Am Osteopath Assoc 103 (8): 367–70. PMID 12956249.

Bates, B et al.The DO Difference: An Analysis of Causal Relationships Affecting the Degree-Change Debate" Journal of the American Osteopathic Association. Vol 109. No 7. July 2009. 359-369

bth

[Sam212]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

I've heard 100% the exact opposite for DO residencies. Meaning that it is one of the most important factors???

I think you are asking about surgical subspecialties in DO match. What you have mentioned is mostly true for surgical subspecialties from what I know. Each program has enough applicants that they mostly interview those who rotated with them, unless of course one is an outstanding candidate.

[bth7]

Originally Posted by Sam212

I think you are asking about surgical subspecialties in DO match. What you have mentioned is mostly true for surgical subspecialties from what I know. Each program has enough applicants that they mostly interview those who rotated with them, unless of course one is an outstanding candidate.

Good to know.

I know almost nothing about the surgery world, except of course that anyone interested in surg is NUTS.



j/k

This is coming from a psych guy. Kettle calling tea pot black . . . etc

bth

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by Sam212

I think you are asking about surgical subspecialties in DO match. What you have mentioned is mostly true for surgical subspecialties from what I know. Each program has enough applicants that they mostly interview those who rotated with them, unless of course one is an outstanding candidate.

I've heard it about Rads, Anes, Optha (not totally surg), derm, PM&R, etc, so not just totally surgery.

[JaggerPlate]

bth ... you are very passionate, honest, and contribute a lot to these forums. I've always appreciated your input, but there are a few points in this post I wanted to address.

Originally Posted by bth7

Before I went through the match, I also believed the EXACT opposite. That audition rotations were the "key" to getting competitive.

But then I took a look at who was matching where. There was no consistent pattern in people matching into competitive fields at places they'd done audition rotations at. It helped some people, it hurt others.

I think people don't realize how rigorous the interview process is, I didn't. After a day at these places when you are interviewing, you have pretty good feel for the place, how the residents feel about the program, and they get a good feel for you. It's usually a fairly intense day.

First, I think that your opinion is a bit one sided because of the fact that you applied only ACGME and applied (I believe psych) to something that is (in terms of derm, rads, ENT, PRS, etc) fairly non-competitive (I mean that with no disrespect whatsoever). I don't think auditions are as big in the ACGME world due to a far greater number of spots, PDs seeming to put more emphasis on USMLE scores, and I also think they are much bigger for more competitive/more limited number of spot specialties.

I've personally heard people in Rads and Gas tell me that auditions were extremely important, and I've read first hand on residency websites (derm ... don't judge, I was just playing around hahah) that 1. candidates need to do a rotation to be considered and 2. candidates needed letters from DOs in that field to be considered, which means they needed to do audition rotations to get these letters.

Originally Posted by bth7

Just do the math. You're going to (or you SHOULD be going to) apply to at least 10, if not 20 programs.

You should have at least 5 that you REALLY like on that list. And 5 more that you would be happy with.

There's just no way you're going to do an audition rotation at 10 places. It's not possible. Program directors don't expect it.

I agree, you aren't going to do 10 audition rotations. But again, I guarantee if you're going out for ENT (for example) in those top 5 you ranked on the list, you SHOULD have done an audition rotation with probably 5, if not 3 of them. With spots so limited, there is no choice. Say the ENT program at Botsford gets 100 applicants for 2 spots or whatever. They are all going to have fantastic grades, board scores, etc etc ... now are they going to interview all of them? Are they going to randomly pick out of the 50 people with top 10% COMLEX, honors, etc?? Or are they going to pick people that did an audition rotation??? To me it seems obvious.

Also, PDs may not 'expect it,' but I don't think that will give you much comfort when someone gets the spot above you because they did an audition at your number one choice (where you didn't), knew multiple people making the decisions and made a good impression with them, and got the spot. ADCOMS don't expect you to get a 40 on the MCAT either, but the kid with the 40 is getting an interview before you ... ya know??

Originally Posted by bth7

I am NOT saying its a bad idea. I got my best letter of rec from one of my audition rotations. I even got my preceptor from an audition rotation to call the PD of the program that I most wanted to say to the PD "hey, we worked with this guy for a month, he was great, you want him."

I personally think this type of networking is invaluable, and honestly you can never even be sure how much baring it had on where you eventually match. Maybe something about a rotation you did even helped with the place you matched??? Maybe someone's uncle, brother, etc, said something somewhere??? You just don't know, and another reason why I don't think these should be overlooked.

Originally Posted by bth7

The point is, I think its really important to do several (2-3) audition rotations IN the specialty of your choice AT programs you are interested in. But I don't think you should have the expectation that those are the places you'll wind up matching, or even want to be matching.

Agreed ... and good to know!

Originally Posted by bth7

The real key, in my opinion, is getting the interview. The key to getting the interview is letting the program know you want to go there. PD's get lots of applications. They don't want to sort through the pile. Everyone has great scores, great LoRs, etc. But a phone call or a personal letter from you saying "Hey, I'm really interested in X program because I heard Y and I think I be a great fit because of Z" really drives home the message that you know about the program, want to be a part of their team, took the time to learn about what they are trying to do at the program, etc.

Exactly. This is a great point, and is why I think the audition rotations are so crucial.

Originally Posted by bth7

Last but not least - If the program has never accepted a DO, don't kid yourself that an audition rotation will help you "overcome the anti-DO barrier". I had a PD director flat out say to me "we really like you, you're gonna make a great resident. But we have a policy: we don't take DO students. That's just the way it is." And they never have.

I don't know how many places just flat out won't take a DO because they are a DO, but I personally wouldn't set up a rotation here if I knew this???

Originally Posted by bth7

Also, full disclosure. My experience is 100% ACGME programs. I did not, would not, would not ever apply to an AOA accredited residency program. (Unless I wanted optho, derm, ENT, or Rads.) I just would never have done it. I would have rather walked away from medicine altogether. I know that's super-extreme, but that's the way I feel about the AOA.

Okay, here is where I take the biggest issue. I think this last paragraph really weakens your convictions. You go off about only doing ACGME, hating the AOA too, but then basically say ' I would never do anything with the AOA ... unless I needed them to get something I wanted.' What kind of mentality is that??? You hate the AOA horribly, but would sell out your beliefs for a derm residency if you reallly wanted to do derm??? That's horrible, and I think I have a hard time really putting a lot of weight into your prior opinions in this post because of it.

Like I said, thank you for the information. It really is helpful. However, you have made some BOLD points, and I think that last paragraph should be evaluated before someone a few years from now pulls this thread up while searching for information about audition rotations and ends up blowing it off because of your earlier points.

[bth7]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

Okay, here is where I take the biggest issue. I think this last paragraph really weakens your convictions. You go off about only doing ACGME, hating the AOA too, but then basically say ' I would never do anything with the AOA ... unless I needed them to get something I wanted.' What kind of mentality is that??? You hate the AOA horribly, but would sell out your beliefs for a derm residency if you reallly wanted to do derm??? That's horrible, and I think I have a hard time really putting a lot of weight into your prior opinions in this post because of it.

Hey, thanks for reading. Your attention is flattering.

I disclosed what I disclosed because I KNOW it weakens my argument. It is a BIAS, my bias. That's why I'm disclosing it. I'm trying to be honest, to give you all the info I have. I'm not here to win an argument.

For some, revealing that I hate the AOA may be a turn off. For others, it may be a turn ON. The important thing, is recognizing and being honet about your biases.

As far as going AOA for derm, I'm sorry you feel that is selling out. I feel the opposite. My career as a physician is my #1 priority. Nothing will get in my way, including my hatred of the AOA. If I wanted to be a dermatologist, I might have intentionally chosen DO school, since getting into ACGME derm even from an MD school is nearly impossible.

I hope this makes sense. But if I doesn't, that's ok too. I'd rather be honest than perfect. It's no secret : I think the AOA is a mendacious, provincial, myopic organization that hurts patients, takes advantage of students, and damages the profession of medicine - for the sake of self-promotion and petty political games.

At its best, the AOA is an old boys club. At its worst its a deceptive, racist, sexist profiteer.

bth

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by bth7

Hey, thanks for reading. Your attention is flattering.

No problem! I've always enjoyed your input. You are very passionate about what you believe in and you aren't afraid to stand up for it, I like that.

Originally Posted by bth7

I disclosed what I disclosed because I KNOW it weakens my argument. It is a BIAS, my bias. That's why I'm disclosing it. I'm trying to be honest, to give you all the info I have. I'm not here to win an argument.

I respect that you are fair and put all your cards out on the table. Transparency is crucial in all honest discussions in my opinion. Trust me, I don't want to argue either and wouldn't be foolish enough to argue about the AOA/audition rotations with a med student who has gone through both organizations and successfully matched. I think we were both simply trying to get points across.

Originally Posted by bth7

The important thing, is recognizing and being honet about your biases.

I really agree with this and, again, respect that you are doing so.

Originally Posted by bth7

As far as going AOA for derm, I'm sorry you feel that is selling out. I feel the opposite. My career as a physician is my #1 priority. Nothing will get in my way, including my hatred of the AOA. If I wanted to be a dermatologist, I might have intentionally chosen DO school, since getting into ACGME derm even from an MD school is nearly impossible.

My point, which probably could have been articulated better, was not that you were selling out, it was more that you were making a lot of very bold, clear statements and I feared people reading this remarks and assuming they should not worry about audition rotations, no matter their circumstances.

Originally Posted by bth7

I'd rather be honest than perfect. It's no secret : I think the AOA is a mendacious, provincial, myopic organization that hurts patients, takes advantage of students, and damages the profession of medicine - for the sake of self-promotion and petty political games.

At its best, the AOA is an old boys club. At its worst its a deceptive, racist, sexist profiteer.

bth

I'm reserving my opinions about the AOA until I really get into medical school. Getting caught up in other people's opinions can really sway your own, and I like to make my own mind up about things, you know. I am sorry that you have had such a poor experience with the AOA, and I'm glad you were able to match and find a successful route to becoming the physician you want to be.

I hope everything in our exchange came off as civil, and - like this threads initial purpose - I hope it can be used as information for future DO applicants.

[scpod]

There are some AOA programs where you will never get ranked if you don't rotate there-- optho, for instance. I really had planned on doing some audition rotations, but by the time I got to 4th year I decided that it would be a waste of my time. I applied to 24 programs at first and later added a few more. I have more interviews scheduled than I can possibly ever attend. Some of them emailed me, though, and asked if I rotated there.... because they don't give interviews unless you do. I wrote them back and told them I was too busy to rotate at their program and please delete me from their list. We're not talking "top" programs here either.

I also used the connections that I have. I ran into an ex-girlfriend on Facebook that is the Med/Peds coordinator at an ACGME place where I wouldn't mind going. She called up the program coordinator of the program I wanted and asked them to interview me. They said, "sure."

I applied to some AOA, ACGME and dual programs and I really don't care where I end up. I just want to make sure that the atmosphere is pleasant, the residents are well-treated and that I have the chance to learn a lot while I'm there. There are a few programs that look pretty good on paper but are toxic at heart.

One more note about audition rotations. One of my best friends is doing a bunch of them, and each time she comes home I hear a story about how awful the program is and how she'd never want to go there. She wasted a lot of time at places where she won't even be applying. If you plan on doing some audition rotations you'd better get a pretty good feel for it ahead of time somehow... or you'll be wasting your time too.

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by scpod

There are some AOA programs where you will never get ranked if you don't rotate there-- optho, for instance. I really had planned on doing some audition rotations, but by the time I got to 4th year I decided that it would be a waste of my time. I applied to 24 programs at first and later added a few more. I have more interviews scheduled than I can possibly ever attend. Some of them emailed me, though, and asked if I rotated there.... because they don't give interviews unless you do. I wrote them back and told them I was too busy to rotate at their program and please delete me from their list. We're not talking "top" programs here either.

I also used the connections that I have. I ran into an ex-girlfriend on Facebook that is the Med/Peds coordinator at an ACGME place where I wouldn't mind going. She called up the program coordinator of the program I wanted and asked them to interview me. They said, "sure."

I applied to some AOA, ACGME and dual programs and I really don't care where I end up. I just want to make sure that the atmosphere is pleasant, the residents are well-treated and that I have the chance to learn a lot while I'm there. There are a few programs that look pretty good on paper but are toxic at heart.

One more note about audition rotations. One of my best friends is doing a bunch of them, and each time she comes home I hear a story about how awful the program is and how she'd never want to go there. She wasted a lot of time at places where she won't even be applying. If you plan on doing some audition rotations you'd better get a pretty good feel for it ahead of time somehow... or you'll be wasting your time too.

Why did you decide it was a waste of time by 4th year and what field did you end up applying ??

[bth7]

Originally Posted by scpod

There are some AOA programs where you will never get ranked if you don't rotate there-- optho, for instance. I really had planned on doing some audition rotations, but by the time I got to 4th year I decided that it would be a waste of my time. I applied to 24 programs at first and later added a few more. I have more interviews scheduled than I can possibly ever attend. Some of them emailed me, though, and asked if I rotated there.... because they don't give interviews unless you do. I wrote them back and told them I was too busy to rotate at their program and please delete me from their list. We're not talking "top" programs here either.

I also used the connections that I have. I ran into an ex-girlfriend on Facebook that is the Med/Peds coordinator at an ACGME place where I wouldn't mind going. She called up the program coordinator of the program I wanted and asked them to interview me. They said, "sure."

I applied to some AOA, ACGME and dual programs and I really don't care where I end up. I just want to make sure that the atmosphere is pleasant, the residents are well-treated and that I have the chance to learn a lot while I'm there. There are a few programs that look pretty good on paper but are toxic at heart.

One more note about audition rotations. One of my best friends is doing a bunch of them, and each time she comes home I hear a story about how awful the program is and how she'd never want to go there. She wasted a lot of time at places where she won't even be applying. If you plan on doing some audition rotations you'd better get a pretty good feel for it ahead of time somehow... or you'll be wasting your time too.

Thank you scpod. This is what I'm trying to say.

Is doing audition rotations necessary? Yeah, for some programs. But its NOT the "key" to matching.

Its a HUGE investment in time, and you just don't have that much. Like he said, he applied to 24 programs (good boy) and how the hell is he even gonna touch those with an audition rotations? 24 months? I don't think so. As his friend experienced, the audition rotation you do can turn you off to the program, or the program off to you. A lot can go "wrong" in a whole month. It's much easier to look impressive for one day.

For me, I didn't WANT to match at any of the 3 audition rotations that I had. However, they were still very valuable. They taught me about the nuts and bolts of my specialty, they gave me lots of face-time with residents in my field, they gave me the opportunity to talk shop about programs, what their reputations were, what to avoid in a program, what questions to ask on interview day.

So they were important, but not at all for the reasons I thought.

Networking = the key. (Like the facebook story, these kinds of connections (as annoying as it may seem) are key.

Calling, making the personal connection, finding the program that "fits" with you = key.

Consider this too, its very normal, when you get an interview, to call the other programs in that city and say "I have an interview in Boston on the 29th, and I wanted to let you know I will be in town around this date. If you would like to give me an interview for this date, I would greatly appreciate it."

Interviewing = expensive travel. PD's know this, and want to help you out. If they were on the fence about interviewing you, and you call an express interest, this may be the little tipping point that gets you the interview. This is VERY common.

bth

[scpod]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

Why did you decide it was a waste of time by 4th year and what field did you end up applying ??

I'm tired. I just don't wanna run around and work 80 hours a week impressing people. I interview very well and I think I can impress enough people with just one visit. Some programs do have a "second look" weekend after interviews, though, and I'm under the impression that they "strongly encourage" you to attend if you want to be ranked highly. I could be wrong about that, though.

The one big thing I have encountered in ACGME programs who interview DOs is that they want to know a lot about your clinical years because they KNOW that some DO rotations are more like big time shadowing than rotating. They ask you about all the hands-on stuff you did, whether you were allowed to write in the charts, did you dictate, how many babies you caught yourself...etc. If you rotated mostly in an academic center then you do have a better chance than if you spent a lot of time with preceptors in outpatient spots. They really want to know that you have enough knowledge and skill to be thrust into things pretty quickly and that you have experience in the hospital.

So...... to make a long story short, the rotations you choose to do (or have chosen for you) can make a big difference with some programs.

I chose IM because I want to be a hospitalist. 24 (or more) spots might seem like a lot but there are literally hundreds you can choose from. Mine were still pretty carefully chosen. Is there a chance that I might want to do a fellowship? Maybe. I just don't think so right now, but I still want to set myself up in a decent position in the event that I decide to do that later. I'm spending the extra time now that I might have spent auditioning on readying a paper for publishing that I wrote during my research month, and I'm planning another. Might never make a difference, but being ahead of the game is vital in life.

[scpod]

Originally Posted by bth7

Thank you scpod. This is what I'm trying to say.

OMG!!! We agree on something. Checking to see if hell has frozen over...hahah!

Good luck. Hope you found a place where you will be happy!

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by scpod

I'm tired. I just don't wanna run around and work 80 hours a week impressing people. I interview very well and I think I can impress enough people with just one visit. Some programs do have a "second look" weekend after interviews, though, and I'm under the impression that they "strongly encourage" you to attend if you want to be ranked highly. I could be wrong about that, though.

The one big thing I have encountered in ACGME programs who interview DOs is that they want to know a lot about your clinical years because they KNOW that some DO rotations are more like big time shadowing than rotating. They ask you about all the hands-on stuff you did, whether you were allowed to write in the charts, did you dictate, how many babies you caught yourself...etc. If you rotated mostly in an academic center then you do have a better chance than if you spent a lot of time with preceptors in outpatient spots. They really want to know that you have enough knowledge and skill to be thrust into things pretty quickly and that you have experience in the hospital.

So...... to make a long story short, the rotations you choose to do (or have chosen for you) can make a big difference with some programs.

I chose IM because I want to be a hospitalist. 24 (or more) spots might seem like a lot but there are literally hundreds you can choose from. Mine were still pretty carefully chosen. Is there a chance that I might want to do a fellowship? Maybe. I just don't think so right now, but I still want to set myself up in a decent position in the event that I decide to do that later. I'm spending the extra time now that I might have spent auditioning on readying a paper for publishing that I wrote during my research month, and I'm planning another. Might never make a difference, but being ahead of the game is vital in life.

Thanks for the info

[Annexin5]

I'm curious, are there a lot of programs, or at least PD's that will flat out refuse accepting a DO as a resident? I've heard that this is the reason that DO's who manage to get into the competitive residencies (i.e. derm, rad, anesth, etc...) rarely find themselves at a strong academic institution and their associated medical centers?

I think we've gotten a wealth of advice from this page alone (THANK YOU EVERYONE!), but I'm wondering, is there anyone who has or is the process of applying to a general surgery residency (i.e. a fourth year) who can talk about his/her specific experiences?

[djd2187]

If anyone from the 3rd or 4th year students from NOVA is reading this, could you either pm me about how do you like the rotations or possibly give us a small summary, it would be greatly appreciated.

[JaggerPlate]

Originally Posted by Annexin5

I'm curious, are there a lot of programs, or at least PD's that will flat out refuse accepting a DO as a resident?

Honestly ... I'm a pre-med and don't know. However, in my second hand knowledge ... I've heard this is rare. I think a lot of places and fields are a fat uphill battle, but I think as far as places saying NO DO period ... it really doesn't happen very often.

[DrReginaDO]

Sorry if NYCOM has already been reviewed by a 3rd or 4th year, but 700+ posts! I can't look through all of that, haha! Sorry for spelling/grammer mistakes...i'm typing quick before my night shift.

Curriculum: So i was a member of the DPC program (PBL), so i can olny speak about that, and maybe some second hand info about lecture based. I LOVED DPC, don't get me wrong...it is a new program so they are still working out some kinks, but its been almost 2 years since 2nd year so i believe they have only gotten better! The break down is basically that you learn your curriculum through paper cases. Small group is 2 hours, 3 times a week and during that time you work on the case as well as discuss "learning issues", which are what you said that you would go home and learn all about at the previous group. Working on the paper cases helps you ALOT when it comes to the clinical years cause you see how a case is actually presented. You also get to practice on you H&P during the first 2 years by verbalizing what you want from the HPI and physical etc etc. It does get a little hairy when you make 3 or 4 learning issues and then you have a limited time to become an "expert" on them, or at least good enough to discuss them at the next group. It may sound great to only have group 3 times a few for a couple of hours, but there are alot of other programs to keep you busy. You still have to go to all the anatomy and OMM lectures and labs, plus you will have the DPC clinical skills labs and during the second half of 1st year and all of 2nd year you will be spending one day a week at a doctor's office somewhere in LI/NYC. So you pretty much have to have great time management skills. It took me a while to figure my best study habits, but for me, it all worked out. You only have 4 exams a year, 2 each half year (midterm and final). They were a mix of multiple choice, short answer and essay. For the most part..they were pretty fair. There were a few times that it wasn't, but out of lets say 10 topics, you can opt to not do one or two, and for me the off the wall topics i skiped. I did fine on the exams and to give you some idea of "pass rates", out of my class of 32, only 2 needed to remediate first year during the summer and then after second year i beieve that only 2 people failed the boards. In my year no one was "kicked out". The great thing is that they really try to help you out when you are struggling.

Location: LI stinks, i lived in the Bronx with my familly for the first 2 years and communted. It wasn't horrible, bout 20-30 min. There are a lot of good spots to eat around the school, Thai, Sushi, Bar food, BK, Wendys, Delis and starbucks. Dave and Buster's isnt that far away and we went there a few nights to hang out. After most, if not all of the exams, the students went to the Barfoot Peddler, the bar around the corner. I know a lot of people who lived pretty close to the school, and never really heard any complaints. It is close to the city, for those who don't know NYs layout.

Cost: Alot! I lucked out and didn't pay a cent for undergrad, so all i have is med loans....and thats about $250K (mind you i also lived at home for 3 years). I know other students who have A LOT more loans than i do. For the most part, NYCOM does have some cool technology and you KINDA get what you pay for...but its still really expensive and it felt like tutition went up every year!! A little tip on health care...DO NOT take the NYCOM insurance, its $$ and from what i hear, sucks! I was under my parents insurance until i turned 23 and then i just got medicaid. Your not making anymoney and NYCOM accepts it, so go for it!

Faculty: The DPC faculty all really cares! You can completely talk to any of them and they will give you their honest opinion and great advise of med school and on life. I never had a problem with the faculty! There are two faculty members in each of the small groups and you all really become like a little med community! I had one write me an AMAZING letter of reccomendation, and if you work hard they will actually see your dedication unlike in lecture based where your kinda just one of 200 +.

Reputation: From what i know, solid.

Clinical Rotations: I applied and did my entire year at St. Barnabas hospital in the Bronx, and so far i've done all of my fourth year there (can you tell where i want my residency?). NYCOM is part of NYCOMEC which has a million amazing hospitals. I've heard great things about all the hospitals, and they all specialize in something a little different. I picked Barn becuase i want to go into EM and there EM Program is great. You have the option to do the scholars program, where you do your whole thrid year at that one hospital (of which DPC students did amazing, since its and application and interview process), or you can go through a lottery to do a different rotation in a different hospital.

Housing: I lived with my parents, but my friends found nice places fine.

Study areas: The DPC study area is the same as where you have your small groups. You have the computer with projection screen (great for doing practice questions with friends), the white board to draw on and the huge post it notes where you can make diagrams and save them for group or at home (My friend's whole room was wallpapered in these huge stickys with flowcharts and picstures of the heart etc). For the most part its very quiet, and if it gets loud you can ask the other DPCers to shut up lol. Its a small group of people in the program so you probably know the people talking. Best part, in my opinion, is that there is a kitchentte and you can eat while you study, or make a cup of tea/coffee. The lecture kids get a huge study room with cubicales....i've never been in it, but i've heard of a lot of people just playing around and not really using the room to study.

Social Scene: I hung out now and again, but i didnt live in the area. In the DPC program because its only 30 or so students in yoru class, you relly get to know everyone and get to all hang out. NYCOM does through mixers now and again, i never went but i heard that they were pretty fun.

Local Hospitals: Read above about clinical rotations.

Board Prep: For our class, at the end of second year there was a Kaplan review course that was offered (not free of course). I took it and was very happy with it.

Specialty: In my, biased, opinion DPC is totally the way to go. Its not for everyone since you need ALOT of dedication and drive to read and teach yourself....but you learn! No one is going to hold your hand in 3rd and 4th year and beyond so it really forms you into a student for life.

Grades:

Curriculum: DPC: A Lecture: ?
Location: B
Cost: D
Financial Aid: B (Tom Reily is awesome and very helpful)
Faculty: A
Reputation: A
Technology: A
Study Space/Library: DPC: A+
Library technology/Resources: A
Rotations: A
Social: B+
Hospitals: A
Post Grad: I would assume A, but i still have until May to graduate.


HOPE THIS HELPED!!! If you have any questions, private message me!


Overall Grade: A

[DoktorB]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

Honestly ... I'm a pre-med and don't know. However, in my second hand knowledge ... I've heard this is rare. I think a lot of places and fields are a fat uphill battle, but I think as far as places saying NO DO period ... it really doesn't happen very often.

They're definitely out there. Especially in surgery.

A good way to find out is to probe residency websites and look at their current and past residents. They usually list them. Its time-consuming, but with all my free time (ha..ha..ha..) I've looked over a lot of general surgery programs. Its really interesting to see, because some will have DO's every year or two, while some (especially west coast) will have NONE EVER.

How satisfying would it be to be the first DO to crack a program though.

[beckhunter116]

Originally Posted by DoktorB

They're definitely out there. Especially in surgery.

A good way to find out is to probe residency websites and look at their current and past residents. They usually list them. Its time-consuming, but with all my free time (ha..ha..ha..) I've looked over a lot of general surgery programs. Its really interesting to see, because some will have DO's every year or two, while some (especially west coast) will have NONE EVER.

How satisfying would it be to be the first DO to crack a program though.

Here is a classic example on how convoluted the whole residency process is...West coast residencies (at least Cali) typically favor graduates from Cali schools, people who are originally from there, or did a lot of rotations in the state. There are only 2 DO schools in Cali and the Touro school is relatively new so the west coast is a factor all of its own.

How are general surgery programs on the east coast, specifically the NE? This question at least addresses the fact that a lot of DO graduates would be in the geographic area, so if the programs have no DO's then you can see it is probably a bias at those programs.

[bth7]

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

Honestly ... I'm a pre-med and don't know. However, in my second hand knowledge ... I've heard this is rare. I think a lot of places and fields are a fat uphill battle, but I think as far as places saying NO DO period ... it really doesn't happen very often.

They are definetly, definetly out there. And I'm in a relatively "DO-friendly" field: psychiatry.

Just look at the list of residents for any program. They are often listed on-line. If you see not a single DO amoungst the residents, chances are they don't take DOs.

You can always ask as well. Many programs will be very honest with you "We do not accept DOs into our residency program." It's not exactly a secret, nor is it uncommon.

Others will have a defined quota. "We always take at least 1, or at most 3 DOs a year."

Other make no distinction, simply accepting the most "qualified" candidates.

These are all policies I have heard, directly from the lips of program directors. Again, its not a secret. They generally want to be honest with you. They know how hard we all work. And if they don't take DOs, they will let you know so as to not waste your time, or theirs.

bth

[bth7]

Originally Posted by scpod

OMG!!! We agree on something. Checking to see if hell has frozen over...hahah!

Good luck. Hope you found a place where you will be happy!

Oh come now, I think we agree on all kinds of things.

How's the OMM coming?

I'm happy to see it seems like you've found an interest in IM. That's great. Good luck with all your interviews and the match.

I LOVE my residency. Very happy. North Shore-Long Island Jewish. The key for me was finding a University affiliated, well-funded residency program associated accredited by the ACGME.

I'm currently on a PEDS rotation at Schnieder Children's Hospital. Planning on going into Child Psych. So happy to be free of med school. The last year - it nearly killed me. Correction, the whole 4 years, they nearly killed me.

bth

[Annexin5]

Originally Posted by bth7

They are definetly, definetly out there. And I'm in a relatively "DO-friendly" field: psychiatry.

Just look at the list of residents for any program. They are often listed on-line. If you see not a single DO amoungst the residents, chances are they don't take DOs.

You can always ask as well. Many programs will be very honest with you "We do not accept DOs into our residency program." It's not exactly a secret, nor is it uncommon.

Others will have a defined quota. "We always take at least 1, or at most 3 DOs a year."

Other make no distinction, simply accepting the most "qualified" candidates.

These are all policies I have heard, directly from the lips of program directors. Again, its not a secret. They generally want to be honest with you. They know how hard we all work. And if they don't take DOs, they will let you know so as to not waste your time, or theirs.

bth

Hmm...In trying to decide between schools, the most frequent advice I got was that the eduction/rotation period is what YOU make of it...do well and you can place in the residencies you want. But after reading the feedback here, it seems that I'm locked out of some, if not many, strong programs (depending on specialty) based solely on my degree?

[bth7]

Originally Posted by Annexin5

Hmm...In trying to decide between schools, the most frequent advice I got was that the eduction/rotation period is what YOU make of it...do well and you can place in the residencies you want. But after reading the feedback here, it seems that I'm locked out of some, if not many, strong programs (depending on specialty) based solely on my degree?

Everything you said above is true, all at the same time.

It is 100% what you make of it.

AND, you will be constrained based solely on your degree - at some programs, in some specialties. (Possibly at many programs, depending on your specialty.)

But, living in the real world is about working with constraints, working around obstacles. Finding solutions and accomplishing goals in spite of roadblocks.

Knowing the obstacles & having a sense of the terrain is the first step. If you know your destination, and pay close attention to the road you are travelling on, you will reach your goal.

bth

[JaggerPlate]

Anyone have the time to do an updated/newer review of Touro University Nevada???

[DoktorB]

Originally Posted by bth7

But, living in the real world is about working with constraints, working around obstacles. Finding solutions and accomplishing goals in spite of roadblocks.

Knowing the obstacles & having a sense of the terrain is the first step. If you know your destination, and pay close attention to the road you are travelling on, you will reach your goal.

bth

wise words!

[scpod]

Originally Posted by bth7

Just look at the list of residents for any program. They are often listed on-line. If you see not a single DO amoungst the residents, chances are they don't take DOs.

I agree generally... but maybe that's a little oversimplified. There are programs every year who are opening up to DOs for the very first time. IMO, I think many of them are simply looking for a way to have more US medical graduates-- doctors who speak the language well. So.... it doesn't necessarily hurt to apply to programs that haven't had DOs before, but you might be wasting your time.

Of course, there are also a few pretty good to excellent programs each year that are taking their first DOs on as residents. It isn't a regular thing yet, but I think it's increasing. I hear more stories every year.

I think the bottom line is this: If you plan on attending a DO school and want an AOA residency in FP or IM over the next few years you will not have any problems whatsoever getting a spot. If you are planning on another specialty, it will be getting harder because the number of DO graduates is increasing faster than the number of specialty residency positions.

If, however, you plan on attending a DO school and doing an ACGME residency in anything other than family practice.... well, you've probably got an uphill battle on your hands. You can lessen the severity of the carnage with many things but one of the more important is the quality of rotations that you have in 3rd and 4th year. More and more ACGME programs are opening to DOs but they look VERY carefully at where you did you rotations. They like candidates who spent a lot of time at strong academic teaching centers. There is a very strong bias, IMHO, among AGGME program directors toward people with this kind of background.

Yes, there are many other factors. For instance, "who you know" will always trump "what you know." Yet, I still think that you can get a good education no matter what school you attend, but you may have to take charge of your schooling and work very hard to make sure you are doing all the right things. Do not count on the school to do this for you. You may be left behind.

[JaggerPlate]

I wish we could get some more/newer reviews in this thread for people in the current cycle. Touro-NV or KCOM ?????

[Annexin5]

Originally Posted by scpod

Of course, there are also a few pretty good to excellent programs each year that are taking their first DOs on as residents. It isn't a regular thing yet, but I think it's increasing. I hear more stories every year.

I think the bottom line is this: If you plan on attending a DO school and want an AOA residency in FP or IM over the next few years you will not have any problems whatsoever getting a spot. If you are planning on another specialty, it will be getting harder because the number of DO graduates is increasing faster than the number of specialty residency positions.

If, however, you plan on attending a DO school and doing an ACGME residency in anything other than family practice.... well, you've probably got an uphill battle on your hands. You can lessen the severity of the carnage with many things but one of the more important is the quality of rotations that you have in 3rd and 4th year. More and more ACGME programs are opening to DOs but they look VERY carefully at where you did you rotations. They like candidates who spent a lot of time at strong academic teaching centers. There is a very strong bias, IMHO, among AGGME program directors toward people with this kind of background.

Yes, there are many other factors. For instance, "who you know" will always trump "what you know." Yet, I still think that you can get a good education no matter what school you attend, but you may have to take charge of your schooling and work very hard to make sure you are doing all the right things. Do not count on the school to do this for you. You may be left behind.

My experience is limited to the two schools I've interviewed and researched, but judging by the number of seniors they're putting into non family practice ACGME residencies it seems like it may not be that hard to do.

here's a link to the 2009 NSUCOM match list:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...=643924&page=2

unfortunately they don't spell out whether the residency was ACGME or AOA, but i'm assuming that the ACGME spots are associated with major academic centers (I might be completely off on this, so sorry if I am). If this turns out to be true, then the list seems to be 45-55 ACGME-AOA with only about 20ish kids in FP.

I've got a hard copy of the CCOM 2009 match list - this list does let you know if the residency is ACGME or AOA. Just to give you an idea:

4 total radiology matches, 2 were ACGME
24 IMed, 17 were ACGME
4 general surgery, 1 ACGME
19 EM, 9 were ACGME
3 Anes, 2 ACGME

the list obviously had many more specialties...on a side note, there are so few general surgery b/c the list broke it down into neurosurgery, orthopedic, etc...I'm not sure how but I didn't count it unless it said GS. This list was 86 DO/ 85 MD - with only 10 out of 25 MD FP.

In any case, the point i'm trying to make is that maybe landing an ACGME residency that is not FP isn't going to be too bad. Then again, this list is CCOM, and each school is going to be unique in terms of the type of doctors they focus on turning out.

Ultimately, I think I want some peace of mind that this degree won't get in the way of me landing a decent spot in a competitive residency...i'd rather it be my grades or rotations - something I can control. I think this is why everyone I've spoken to has said to do well and check the rotation sites before looking at match lists. This is also the reason that any additional feedback about rotation sites from different schools is more than welcome! THANKS!

[scpod]

Originally Posted by Annexin5

My experience is limited to the two schools I've interviewed and researched....

What I am hearing is that your "experience" is based on looking at matchlists. Come back to me later, after you've survived a few years of medical school, gone through ERAS and been through some residency interviews yourself. I have a feeling your opinion will change. I don't wish to sound mean, but you have no clue what you are talking about at this point.

[ChiDO]

Match lists are useless. If 100% of students got into an AOA DO FM at their #1 choice because they wanted to, that is a AWESOME MATCH (most pre-meds would look at this and be like "omg so s****ty"). If 50% of students got into ACGME MD "IM/ER/ect" at their #15 choice, I would consider that pretty ****ty (although most pre-meds would be like "OMG so awesome").

And that is why match lists are useless unless they provided each matching students rankings and other pertinent information in regards to their rank list.

[tifsahoy]

to the people wanting "newer" reviews of Touro NV...the ones already written are pretty thorough and there isn't much new to add.

I wrote one last year...now I'm in the middle of second year and I still think Touro is the ****.

PM me if you have any questions

[916to619]

For current DMU-COM students, can you please provide a current DMU-COM review? I have been accepted into DMU-COM Class of 2014 and I would love to know what I am expecting the first and second years as well as the 3rd and 4th years. Thank you in advance for any insight.

P.S. I have already read the other DMU-COM reviews, which were very thorough and informative. However, I am hungry for more since DMU is the school I decided to attend.

[MikeyLu2010]

Originally Posted by scpod

What I am hearing is that your "experience" is based on looking at matchlists. Come back to me later, after you've survived a few years of medical school, gone through ERAS and been through some residency interviews yourself. I have a feeling your opinion will change. I don't wish to sound mean, but you have no clue what you are talking about at this point.

+1 ... 100% agree...once you are here.. or have been here, you have no idea.